Originally Posted by woodduck

what if you just like buying and collecting bikes?

lots of people do it with cars and spend lots of money on them, but you don't have to be a racing car driver to have a fast car.

lots of folks buy expensive watches and jewellery. Hey even stamp collectors pay top dollar for a postage stamp, what do you have to be a good licker for one of those?

Originally Posted by umd

You mean like when you showed off and rolled your uber-expensive Cervelo through the hotel lobby?

Originally Posted by kyakdiver

Is not one missing the joy of appreciating a very nice bike if one starts off at the top? I know that for me it feels much more rewarding to move up in a bike as i move up in ability(kind of reward for the effort). I have gone the all in approach in some other sports and never quite got the same satisfaction as when i worked my way up to the next level.

Do I get envious of some of the rides here on BF? You betcha..... Do I think they would make me much faster? Nope. The time will come this year when I get that new frame set. Why? Because after putting in 5K on my used 2004 TCR... I want a fresh one and I know it will get used and appreciated.

This all matters not though...... We are all different and are free to pick and choose the choices we make.

As well as the right to agree or disagree........... thank goodness.

Originally Posted by jason0617

I may be totally off here. I didn't stalk you prior to posting, so this is based soley on your posting here... That said, I'm assuming that the name DrPete implies you spent a great deal of time, and thus a great deal of money furthering your education so that you could in turn, earn a greater (we hope) deal of money to spend on such extravagent things as expensive bikes... Right now I can afford to spend $1,000 on a bike. I don't have issue with people that can spend lots more. When I get the $140,000 worth of student loans I have paid off, the first thing I'm doing is buying a Porsche. Far more excessive than my Hyundai today, but worth the excess IMHO.

Originally Posted by fly:yes/land:no

this is not true.

Originally Posted by notbuilt4speed

I'm sure it's frustrating to some who believe they are truly dedicated to the sport to see someone with less skills, knowledge, dedication and conditioning ride up with a bike that clearly is beyond their skill level. I'm new here, but I believe you guys use the term poser for someone who has all the top gear but not the skills to match.

While I can appreciate the sentiment, I'm probably more tolerant than others based on past experiences in other sports. When I was younger and played racquetball pretty seriously my coach had an interesting take on buying the best racquet even if your skills don't warrant it, "If your goal is to improve and your own the best racquet but still suck, it's clearly not the racquets fault and you know where to place the blame". I've noticed the adage applies to golf clubs as well.

Originally Posted by Lazyrider

But what about someone like me who can afford to spend $10k on a bike and choose not to or own 5 bikes like myself? Am I envious?

Originally Posted by Lazyrider

But what about someone like me who can afford to spend $10k on a bike and choose not to or own 5 bikes like myself? Am I envious?

Originally Posted by Lazyrider

This is kind of where I am coming from. I think there is a lot of over-exuberance and maybe with good intentions to become proficient in a sport or hobby just to suck at it. Maybe it is where I grew up that there is so little tolerance for posers.

My sport as a child through adolescence was basketball. Summer camps, leagues, pick up, playing at the famous West 4th courts and getting humbled even though I was a really good player. There was ZERO tolerance for posers. If you sucked, you didn't play. If you showed up with all the garb and expensive sneakers and you sucked, you go laughed off the court or the $#$@ kicked out of you.

So when someone posts a $10k bike with a 14mph average as per their Garmin 705, that is the epitome of what they call getting the Dumb Chills.

Originally Posted by kyakdiver

I think maybe I didn't really explain myself well lazy. I love nice bikes. Just like I really
like that corvette picture above. I didn't say I couldn't afford a 10K dollar bike...... I don't know if
you are envious or not. How would I know the answer to that question?

I can only speak for me. I'm sure when I get my new TCR frame set this fall someone will think
it's a waste of money. Can't do much about it. I know I will appreciate it when it arrives. I also
know that it will get used tons.

kyakdiver

Originally Posted by DrPete

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference

It's all about the baggage, whether we know it in the moment or not.

Personally, I grew up in a lower-middle class household where my parents scrounged to get me a good private education in a town with horrible public schools. I went to school with the rich kids who went to Bermuda for spring break. I couldn't afford any of that stuff. You can bet it led to a certain amount of contempt for extravagance, etc. Much the same views when it came to sports.

Now that I've 'made it' and the tables have turned, and I find myself the target of contempt for something that in my current situation isn't particularly extravagant, I kinda realize what an ass I was for hating all those rich kids. All the "rules" about what people can/should have or deserve are all within our own minds, really.

Originally Posted by bstern

It's a question of desert. It is an American innovation that privileges must be earned. Before, privileges were afforded by blood, not as a result of hard work. Generally, we respect someone who lives a very comfortable life if he worked hard to attain that life. We criticize those who have privileges without hard work. That's the American sense of desert, and a meritocracy is something we consider to be good.
Hence, we think the best bikes should only be ridden by those who have put in thousands of miles of legwork to earn them. That's how we think about all nice things. Those who haven't earned the bikes on the road don't deserve them. I guess it can be envy if someone with 20,000 miles on his odometer isn't riding one, but cycling isn't so expensive of a sport that this situation happens very often. My claim, then, is that people criticize money spent by others when it doesn't seem to be in line with their sense of desert and merit. There is an absolute amount of pain, effort, and dedication that many think must be expended to earn the best bikes. If, instead, a person buys one before he deserves one, then the whole meritocracy we consider good goes out the window, and people get pissed off. It's perfectly reasonable, distinctly American, and, all things considered, good. I say blast away at the undeserving among us.

Originally Posted by Lazyrider

This is kind of where I am coming from. I think there is a lot of over-exuberance and maybe with good intentions to become proficient in a sport or hobby just to suck at it. Maybe it is where I grew up that there is so little tolerance for posers.

There was ZERO tolerance for posers. If you sucked, you didn't play. If you showed up with all the garb and expensive sneakers and you sucked, you go laughed off the court or the $#$@ kicked out of you.

So when someone posts a $10k bike with a 14mph average as per their Garmin 705, that is the epitome of what they call getting the Dumb Chills.

Originally Posted by kyroadguy

Honest question: why?

Originally Posted by gp

what's the acceptable max for a beginner's bike?

Originally Posted by DrPete

Really, though? I mean, I've been guilty of it too, as everyone has, but criticizing a purchase, for whatever the reason do jour might be, is ultimately trying to exert some measure of superiority over another person. Why would we do that if we didn't feel the need to do it on some level?

Originally Posted by grolby

I think it's fair to say that criticism is rooted in jealousy, but that it's unfair to mark that up as a failure of character in the envious people.

It really comes down to a sense of justice, I think. The question we ask ourselves is, "why does that person get to have a really nice piece of equipment, and I don't?" And yes, there are differences in values, desire, perception of value and so on, but one of the biggest factors in willingness to pay is ability to pay. Chances are, if you have a P4 with a Sub-9 disc and Red components, that you have a much higher income than I do. There are a lot of values tied up in income, but there's a definite implication in the culture that income is meritocratic: people who make that much money have earned it or deserved it. But this doesn't feel right to most of us. "What's so great about that guy compared to me?" And that question, at least, is a fair one; the distribution of people that we might consider deserving/undeserving on a moral basis is probably not correlated very much with wealth (I'm trying to split a political difference here between pure capitalists who see income as definitively meritocratic and Marxists who see high gross income as incontrovertible evidence of exploitation; what I mean is, the average moral feeling is probably somewhere in between those extremes). Anyway, the point is that the disconnect between wealth and moral merit tweaks our sense of justice. Again, what's so great about that guy? I'm a good person, but I can't afford a P4!

So yeah, people get envious, and sometimes we let it out. That's pretty normal behavior. Some people get pretty upset about this. Personally, there's a lot of stuff out there that makes me envious. There are some really nice bikes and gear out there I wish I could afford, even as the price tag horrifies me. $3k wheels? Inconceivable! But also desirable.

I try not to snipe at the folks with the expensive gear, but I can understand the shock people express at some n00b going all-in with the S3 and the Zipps and SRM, because I feel it, too. And most of us should at least feel that. It's okay. You're a social animal, you have a well-developed sense of justice. And it's true that the disparity is not, realistically speaking, fair. But is it productive to give people crap? Eh, not really. If you think it's a problem, the approach you need is political. Which could be personal, but on the internet it just turns into sniping. Or of course, depending upon your ideology, you can also accept that it's unfair and see that as one of the benefits of the system.

Ultimately, the point is that people get jealous for a reason, and being jealous doesn't make you a bad person. And buying expensive bike crap doesn't necessarily make you a bad person either. It's a complicated world.

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh

You guys are so quick to assume its envy, when it could simply be curmudgeonlyness.