What does an expensive frame get you?
#26
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 755
Bikes: 2019 CAAD12, 2015 Specialized Sirrus Comp
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 562 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 64 Times
in
46 Posts
Which expensive frame compared to which lower cost one? The difference may be huge or the lower cost frame might be superior. To start, all manufacturers have their idea of how they think the ideal bike should ride. If that ideal from a company doesn't match what you're looking for, it doesn't matter how cheap or expensive it is; that frame isn't right for you. Then all production frames represent a series of trade-offs and compromises by the manufacturer. In general, higher priced frames will have fewer trade-offs and less compromises; but if one manufacturer chooses a compromise in the expensive frame that you wouldn't make, and another does it on a cheaper frame in an area you don't care about, the cheaper frame might be better for you.
In other words, it all depends.
In other words, it all depends.
Frames are basically static -- they don't do much beyond holding everything together. But the other parts, such as groupsets, wheels, have direct impact on the operation of the bike. Generally speaking, what does a more expensive frame bring to the equation?
#27
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 755
Bikes: 2019 CAAD12, 2015 Specialized Sirrus Comp
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 562 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 64 Times
in
46 Posts
I know that the OP means well, but really, we can't answer the questions he's asking. Not really. As others here have said, if you can't tell the difference, then save your money and don't buy one. Simply adjectives ("stiffness") don't mean much to an inexperienced rider. And an experienced rider knows because she has ridden high end bikes and has experienced the difference.
I spent several years riding an alloy framed road bike, telling myself that the marginal gains of a more expensive CF bike wouldn't make much of a difference to a rider of my ability and expectations. Then I test rode some and bought a high end bike and the difference for me was vast. Again, don't ask me to specify adjectives - they'll just be misunderstood.
Shorter: Don't ask us, go test ride one and find out for yourself. Our experience means squat to you - go get your own. If you don't find much of a differrence, then the CAAD is still a very nice bike.
nuf said.
I spent several years riding an alloy framed road bike, telling myself that the marginal gains of a more expensive CF bike wouldn't make much of a difference to a rider of my ability and expectations. Then I test rode some and bought a high end bike and the difference for me was vast. Again, don't ask me to specify adjectives - they'll just be misunderstood.
Shorter: Don't ask us, go test ride one and find out for yourself. Our experience means squat to you - go get your own. If you don't find much of a differrence, then the CAAD is still a very nice bike.
nuf said.
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,853
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1067 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 259 Times
in
153 Posts
High end frames are typically lighter, stiffer, and have a more lively feel to them when riding.
They are also more expensive and not as tough. That is more easily damaged when subjected to loads not from normal riding (crashing and other stupid stuff).
Are they worth it? That is totally up to you.
They are also more expensive and not as tough. That is more easily damaged when subjected to loads not from normal riding (crashing and other stupid stuff).
Are they worth it? That is totally up to you.
#29
Me duelen las nalgas
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 13,513
Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel
Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4560 Post(s)
Liked 2,802 Times
in
1,800 Posts
Oh, in my babbling about the Diamondback Podium frame I just built up, I forgot the dang point I intended to make. It was related to a video I found about another person building up a Diamondback racing frame
The fellow in this video (in his notes below the video, above the comment section) says there are differences between frames built for the pro and consumer markets, despite having the same model designation. No idea whether this can be verified.
From video maker's comments:
The fellow in this video (in his notes below the video, above the comment section) says there are differences between frames built for the pro and consumer markets, despite having the same model designation. No idea whether this can be verified.
From video maker's comments:
"Ultralight is not going to be a production model - You have to find old team bikes, they come with a different carbon lay, usually a toray 1200 or 1800 weave, not the production models that use a toray 600 or 800. This is important in that it makes the tea, bikes stiffer and lighter bit the carbon is more brittle and not designer for 10 years of riding. So this is a trade off you will need to decide. If you don't believe me, call Diamondback and ask them if you can buy and actual team bike. The frames are different."
Likes For canklecat:
#30
Zoom zoom zoom zoom bonk
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 4,624
Bikes: Giant Defy, Trek 1.7c, BMC GF02, Fuji Tahoe, Scott Sub 35, Kona Rove, Trek Verve+2
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 551 Post(s)
Liked 722 Times
in
366 Posts
There's definitely some princess and the pea stuff going on here. If you can't tell the difference between a $1,000 and a $10,000 bike you ain't no princess.
#31
Full Member
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 425
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times
in
163 Posts
Lighter, stiffer, more aero as you go up the tiers. The benefits are real, even if some folks don't get to appreciate them. Small gains you see, not all that important to the casual cyclist or Club rider who will mainly benefit from the feel-good factor of a nice shiny thing that has potential, even if they do not realise it themselves - much like someone who buy's a Porsche but never tracks it, races it or gets anywhere close to its true capability.
If you are in peak physical condition, competitive and want every second for those Strava KOM's or that extra acceleration for Crits, that lighter bike for the Gran Fondo hills, then yes, you will see a benefit in buying the top tier machine.
If you are in peak physical condition, competitive and want every second for those Strava KOM's or that extra acceleration for Crits, that lighter bike for the Gran Fondo hills, then yes, you will see a benefit in buying the top tier machine.
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: In the south but from North
Posts: 700
Bikes: Turner 5-Spot Burner converted; IBIS Ripley, Specialized Crave, Tommasini Sintesi, Cinelli Superstar, Tommasini X-Fire Gravel
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 406 Post(s)
Liked 389 Times
in
219 Posts
So I'm curious what higher-end frames offer the cyclist. I have a CAAD12 and love the bike. It weights 17.5 pounds without pedals and with stock wheels (which I changed).
Higher end frames from manufacturers such as Cervello and Specialized cost $4k and up. Controlling for the fact that those frames are carbon and mine is aluminum, what benefits do you achieve by stepping up to more expensive frames? Is it only weight savings, or do you get other improvements, such as better handling and increased stiffness? Are those characteristics noticeable enough to the experienced road cyclist?
Higher end frames from manufacturers such as Cervello and Specialized cost $4k and up. Controlling for the fact that those frames are carbon and mine is aluminum, what benefits do you achieve by stepping up to more expensive frames? Is it only weight savings, or do you get other improvements, such as better handling and increased stiffness? Are those characteristics noticeable enough to the experienced road cyclist?
Are these bikes better? Hard to say. Often they are heavier and less stiff than cheaper frames but often for a purpose. Also, I do feel they are loved more. And that says something.
#33
On Your Left
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Posts: 8,373
Bikes: Trek Emonda SLR, Sram eTap, Zipp 303
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3004 Post(s)
Liked 2,434 Times
in
1,187 Posts
#34
On Your Left
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Posts: 8,373
Bikes: Trek Emonda SLR, Sram eTap, Zipp 303
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3004 Post(s)
Liked 2,434 Times
in
1,187 Posts
Like I already said, if you can't tell the difference, buy the cheaper bike.
Likes For GlennR:
#35
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,645
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4743 Post(s)
Liked 1,534 Times
in
1,005 Posts
I've seen a few references to lighter, stiffer, more aero.. but I thought generally the bike makers are comparing to their own prior generation model. Otherwise, isn't typically the frame just lighter than it's non premium cousin? Or, put another way, it's stiffer and more aero on a Per-LB basis, but not necessarily on a per-frameset basis.
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 1,680
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 980 Post(s)
Liked 776 Times
in
402 Posts
So I'm curious what higher-end frames offer the cyclist. I have a CAAD12 and love the bike. It weights 17.5 pounds without pedals and with stock wheels (which I changed).
Higher end frames from manufacturers such as Cervello and Specialized cost $4k and up. Controlling for the fact that those frames are carbon and mine is aluminum, what benefits do you achieve by stepping up to more expensive frames? Is it only weight savings, or do you get other improvements, such as better handling and increased stiffness? Are those characteristics noticeable enough to the experienced road cyclist?
Higher end frames from manufacturers such as Cervello and Specialized cost $4k and up. Controlling for the fact that those frames are carbon and mine is aluminum, what benefits do you achieve by stepping up to more expensive frames? Is it only weight savings, or do you get other improvements, such as better handling and increased stiffness? Are those characteristics noticeable enough to the experienced road cyclist?
What does a higher-end racquet offer the tennis player?
How about shoes? Are Louis Vuitton shoes worth it because experienced shoe wearers can notice the difference?
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,903
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6982 Post(s)
Liked 10,977 Times
in
4,697 Posts
Likes For Koyote:
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 1,680
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 980 Post(s)
Liked 776 Times
in
402 Posts
Then why did you pose that exact question in your OP?
You could have saved a lot of time and instead just posted “I know exactly why I bought a relatively cheap aluminum frame and I dare anyone to tell me different”
Good stuff
Likes For downhillmaster:
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,516
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3241 Post(s)
Liked 2,512 Times
in
1,510 Posts
Has a lighter wallet been mentioned yet?
Likes For seypat:
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: In the south but from North
Posts: 700
Bikes: Turner 5-Spot Burner converted; IBIS Ripley, Specialized Crave, Tommasini Sintesi, Cinelli Superstar, Tommasini X-Fire Gravel
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 406 Post(s)
Liked 389 Times
in
219 Posts
You talking whole bike or frame? I doubt many could tell the difference between an off the shelf carbon $1000 frame or a $4000 frame.
#43
Senior Member
This is incorrect. Frames, when being ridden, are constantly in motion responding to the forces imposed by the rider, road, and environment. On top of that, they damp vibration. An extreme example of this, and of a designer getting it wrong, is high speed shimmy or wobble where the head tube and seat tube are oscillating out of phase with growing amplitude.
Likes For asgelle:
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,753
Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4394 Post(s)
Liked 3,018 Times
in
1,867 Posts
This reveals your real purpose, which is not actually to learn something. So....bye. Enjoy your ride.
Likes For MinnMan:
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,570
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1852 Post(s)
Liked 679 Times
in
430 Posts
For road bikes, higher end frames tend to just be lighter. They use different carbon and different layups to make the frames lighter, and in some cases may be marginally stiffer or more comfortable than other frames. There is a lot of marketing involved, which raises the price, but in theory, there is also more effort put into the production. But really, if you don't need that extra 200g of weight savings, you can save a lot of money by buying one of the below top-tier frames. Few will notice a difference in the ride quality between the top of the line version and the next one down - that said, I do think you are more likely to notice a difference as you get farther apart in terms of model level.
When you get to other disciplines, like track, time trial or mountain bikes, there is a greater difference between lower and higher end frames. You see it in the aerodynamic qualities, stiffness, weight, suspension....
When you get to other disciplines, like track, time trial or mountain bikes, there is a greater difference between lower and higher end frames. You see it in the aerodynamic qualities, stiffness, weight, suspension....
Last edited by topflightpro; 09-14-20 at 07:34 AM.
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,903
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6982 Post(s)
Liked 10,977 Times
in
4,697 Posts
Going beyond cf, consider steel frames. At the entry level for good bikes, such as Surly, you'll mostly find butted cro-moly steel -- which is good stuff, but not metallurgically advanced. A bit higher up the price spectrum, you will get into some better grades of steel, and at the top end you will find the latest air-hardened and heat-treated steels such as Reynolds 853 and True Temper Platinum OX. The better grades of steel have a higher strength-to-weight ratio, and so the tubes can be drawn with thinner walls and still be sufficiently strong; air-hardened steels also grow stronger where they are heated up in the welding process, resulting in stronger joins. These higher grades of steel result in frames that are not just lighter, but often have a "livelier" ride quality, since the thinner walls (if used in the appropriate tubes) can both dampen road noise and feel more responsive.
The bicycle market is plenty competitive, which means that -- just as economic theory would predict -- you get what you pay for.
The bicycle market is plenty competitive, which means that -- just as economic theory would predict -- you get what you pay for.
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,550
Bikes: Wilier Izoard XP (Record);Cinelli Xperience (Force);Specialized Allez (Rival);Bianchi Via Nirone 7 (Centaur); Colnago AC-R Disc;Colnago V1r Limited Edition;De Rosa King 3 Limited(Force 22);DeRosa Merak(Red):Pinarello Dogma 65.1 Hydro(Di2)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 551 Post(s)
Liked 277 Times
in
145 Posts
An unnecessary rationalization that the frame is better by leaps and bounds.
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 781
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 479 Post(s)
Liked 277 Times
in
156 Posts
Comparing "brand names" to Chinese "generics" isn't really fair. The companies - "brands" that spent a ton of money on R&D to develop that design and material spec have to be compensated to cover those costs. When a Chinese company copies that brand's frame (design, materials, etc) and sells it for 1/3 the cost, that's just ****ty. In most countries, it's ****ty enough to be illegal.
Likes For Zaskar:
#49
commuter
Comparing "brand names" to Chinese "generics" isn't really fair. The companies - "brands" that spent a ton of money on R&D to develop that design and material spec have to be compensated to cover those costs. When a Chinese company copies that brand's frame (design, materials, etc) and sells it for 1/3 the cost, that's just ****ty. In most countries, it's ****ty enough to be illegal.
#50
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,957
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3959 Post(s)
Liked 7,314 Times
in
2,951 Posts
Likes For tomato coupe: