trail_monkey

Sorry if this is the wrong forum but my question pertains to vintage DT shifters. If I am in the wrong forum please move this thread. Anyone know if 80s production Shimano silver arrow DT friction shifters perform well with a modern 10 speed cassette and a Sram mtb clutch derailleur? I want the ability to switch back and forth from SS on my Soma Wolverine (already has brazed on DT bosses) to a 1x10 for certain group rides etc. Not sure if the friction shifter will be able to hold the heavier spring tension especially if I hit bumps in the road. FWIW this bike was previously using this setup with a Sram double tap right shifter but the shifter broke so I went SS. I have several cassettes and 2 sets of vintage DT shifters hanging on the wall. Figured it would be super simple and quick to throw this on without messing with bar tape and buying a new shifter. Also super quick to switch back to SS.

bikemig 

These are made for 8, 9, 10 cassettes:

ENE DOWN TUBE SHIFTER | DIA-COMPE

I dunno if they work with your clutch derailleur. Maybe if you write dia compe, they will let you know? It's a darn good shifter.

trail_monkey

Thanks for that link.

rccardr 

Yes, they have enough travel to traverse an 8-9-10 speed cassette. They'll have to move quite a long way, but will do it.
Larger issue is whether they are the more common 4.5mm fixing bolts as I'm going to assume that the mounts on your frame are 5.0mm.
If so, you'll have to find some compatible 5mm bolts.

trail_monkey

I'm getting my frame warranty to a new version. My old frame (Soma Wolverine v1) is in the bike stand now and I have the shifters actually mounted on it so I'm assuming they will fit the new one as well. New frame will be the v4 version

trail_monkey

I thought I would end this thread with some results from some experimentation today. I got off work early due to the pandemic and I've been in my garage playing around with my old frame this afternoon. The friction shifters work just fine with everything from my modern Sram GX 10 speed clutch derailleur as well as my Shimano dyna-sys 10-speed derailleur. And just for the heck of it I tried them on and old-school mid-90s Deore 8 speed derailleur. It gets the job done with all of them through all 10 gears. And it has zero problem holding with the clutch derailleurs. It works better with the Sram GX derailleur as it requires less shifter movement for a given amount of travel. The Shimano dyna-sys derailleur took the most shifter travel to get the job done. All in all I'm satisfied.

Classtime 

Very Cool!
For me, the limit of friction shifting is 8 speed. Beyond that and it got fussy (for me). A lot of folks happily friction shift 9 or 10. So, if on the bike in the real world, 10 speed requires too much attention, an 8 speed cassette might be perfect.

trail_monkey

Something to consider.... The derailleur that moves the least amount per shifter travel should be the least finicky. Meaning subtle movements to the friction shifters mean less movement to the derailleur therefore more forgiving. For me that would have meant the Shimano dyna-sys but the Sram didn't require a 180 movement to get the job done and it still felt easy to maneuver

Kilroy1988 

It also means less play available on the shifter/derailleur position to stay in gear. On my five or six speeds I can have the shifter set within a few degrees of being perfectly aligned with the derailleur, and still be just fine. With more cogs and a slender chain you need to be precise.

trail_monkey

True statement. It's gonna be a while before I can put this in a real world test but like anything else practice practice......

obrentharris 

Thanks for coming back and closing the loop so the rest of us can benefit from your experience.
Brent

trail_monkey

You're welcome

73StellaSX76

I shifted a Shimano 10 speed derailleur and cassette with Suntour friction down tube shifters on a SOMA Double Cross Disc. It took most all the available travel of the shifter, but it did shift. The problem I had was sometimes pedaling out of the saddle the frame flex would auto shift to a higher snugging up on the friction adjustment did not help hold the gear. I switched to indexed dura ace 10 speed down tube shifters and this bike shifts and holds great. Possibly the best shift performing bike I’ve ever ridden.

79pmooney

Another data point - SunTour Superbe top mounted DT friction and Campy 9-speed and Campy Mirage RD works very well. Nearly 180 degrees used but shifting (for this lifelong DT guy) is sublime. I would have died for it 40 years ago!

And like the OP, I love the really quick setup and tear down. I go fix gear to gravel and back. Now I don't have shifter bosses but the clamp-on is pretty easy (and I love havnng a clean DT to brush when I am riding fix gear).

Ben

Bianchigirll 

UH UM..... What is a 'clutch rear derailleur'? Any pics? Pics of your setup in general? 10 is way too many cogs for me, most of bikes are 7spd I don't live in the mountains or go super fast that is more than enough for me. Although the 8spd IGH with a triple for 24 gears is pretty cool.

SJX426 

Bianchigirll - A clutch-type rear derailleur has a mechanism at the top of the cage that adds some resistance to the cage moving. This acts to keep better tension on the chain over rough terrain or when suspension movement results in chain growth or shrinkage. The clutch is engaged using a lever at the bottom knuckle.

nomadmax 

They came into being from the 1X chain ring thing; the clutch keeps the chain from bouncing off the front. Most have a way to unlock it for wheel removal. In conjunction with that are 1X chainrings that have fat & skinny teeth alternated to help keep the chain on.

trail_monkey

That could be concerning. I will say however that one pair of my friction shifters came off of a 1985 Panasonic DX3000 that I restored. I eventually modernized it by cold setting the rear, going to 130 spacing and an 8 speed cassette, and adding brifters. Then I sold it. I can guarantee you that my Wolverine is not anywhere as flexy as that Panasonic was. It was LIVELY and under load it wiggled like a worm lol.

As far as the travel, using the Shimano Dyna-sys clutch derailleur, it took all of 180 degrees and a little beyond. The shifter was actually a few degrees negative, or below the downtube in 10th gear. Using the Sram GX 10 speed clutch derailleur AND the vintage Shimano Deore mid 90s derailleur (came off a 1997 Mongoose MTB), I was able to do the full shift with the lever maybe 10-20 degrees "positive" or above the downtube if that makes sense. So maybe around 160 degrees movement?

Quick teardown is what I am after. Quick 15-20 minute change over without messing with bar tape and cable housing retainers.


Clutch derailleur just has heavier spring to eliminate chain slap, drop, and suck over rough terrain. It is used for 1x situations where no front derailleur is used to help retain the chain along with a narrow wide front chain ring. Before the clutch derailleur and narrow wide rings came along, 1x users were buying chain guides to attach to the front to help hold the chain on the front ring. Shimano has a switch so the derailleur can be in clutch mode or normal and Sram just uses a heavier spring so it's always stiffer than a standard derailleur. You don't really notice a whole lot of difference in the feel of the shifter but a huge difference in the chain retention without a front derailleur.

Bianchigirll 

OH it's a drag like a fishing reel.