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Tire selection for young child

Old 09-23-19, 02:30 PM
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gauvins
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Tire selection for young child

First "serious ride" (100kms) this weekend with our 9 year-old. Went well, and we've learned that her (new) bike may benefit from a couple of tweaks, although not entirely clear what exactly should be done.

Her bike is a 24" Islabike (Luath). It came with road tires. Probably 1" wide (bike is in the shed, and I am lazy). Great when riding on pavement. Not so when there are patches of loose gravel. She lost control a couple of times, including one tear-inducing spill. We (adults and older child) ride Almotions 2". So the idea is to change her bike's tires for something wider.

First impulse is to swap for Marathon Pluses 24x1.75". However, a quick look at rollingResistance raises questions in my mind -- these tires are rated at 25+Watts (quite a bit more than the 2" Almotions). This is a lot. She did OK this weekend on something that was almost certainly requiring less than 10Watts.... not clear to me what will happen if we put wider tires. A 2x15W difference may be worth putting her feet down when there's a loose patch.

FWIW -- her previous bike was equipped with 20x1.75 Pluses. BUT this was when mommy did most of the work in a tandem-like set-up (follow-me trailer).

I'll scan rollingResistance trying to find a 1.5" lightweight tire. Something like the Almotions/Supremes would be great, but they're not available in 24". Maybe you have something to suggest?
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Old 09-23-19, 04:04 PM
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According to Islabikes, the Luath is rated for up to 32mm (1.25") tires. Specified ratings usually leave some room for safety, but I'd be surprised if you could squeeze a 1.75" (~44mm) tire in there at all, let alone while leaving some spare millimeters for safety.

You could look the bike over and figure out its actual clearances. You might be able to fit a wider tire up front than in back, for instance.
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Old 09-23-19, 04:14 PM
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24 inch can mean several sizes, do you mean 507mm? I think the Plus version gives you much more flat protection than is needed on a childs bike. With the amount of weight a child puts on the tire, flats are less likely.

I have some older Schwalbe Marathons in 507 X 40 on my folding bike, but they have not made the 40mm width for several years now.

I think you would be looking at 47mm width.
https://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_t...s/marathon_420

Oops, I typed the above and posted it before I saw the posting that said that the bike can't take a tire that wide.
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Old 09-23-19, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
24 inch can mean several sizes, do you mean 507mm?
Yep...

https://www.islabikes.com/product/un...uath-24-age-8/
https://www.islabikes.com/product/pr...ikes/luath-24/

It looks like a kind of a cross/road bike. And, unfortunately the specs don't seem to indicate exactly what is on the bike.

3 common sizes:

507 bead seat: MTB size.
520 bead seat: Kid's road
540 bead seat: Wheelchair, and some kid's Cyclocross.
547 bead seat: Mostly obsolete Juvenile, vintage Schwinns

So, the first thing is to head out to garage and figure out exactly what is on the bike.

Being likely of cyclocross derivation, it should have some clearance for wider tires.

Personally, I'd go for the narrow, low rolling resistance. But, it also depends on both flat protection, and the "gravel" you're likely to encounter. Short stretches of well packed gravel, and you'll be fine on road tires.

Long treks on loose gravel... and WIDE?

If your bike has discs, you might be even able to make multiple sets of wheels for wide and narrow tires depending on your use.
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Old 09-23-19, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by HTupolev
According to Islabikes, the Luath is rated for up to 32mm (1.25") tires. Specified ratings usually leave some room for safety, but I'd be surprised if you could squeeze a 1.75" (~44mm) tire in there at all, let alone while leaving some spare millimeters for safety.

You could look the bike over and figure out its actual clearances. You might be able to fit a wider tire up front than in back, for instance.
Interesting. Couldn't find the detailed specs. Would you happen to have a link? (don't overdo it -- I sent a mail to Islabike asking for their suggestion. And as someone amicably suggested below, I must plan a trip to the shed and take a few measurements. (will do )

We'll probably try a few things in order to see if she can learn to negotiate the (admittedly rare) soft gravel spots. We tend to ride in a file, with more experienced riders first and last, so we can conceivably warn her or put our feet down when the surface warrants.
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Old 09-23-19, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by gauvins
Interesting. Couldn't find the detailed specs. Would you happen to have a link?
I just went off their response to the review at the bottom of this page:

https://www.islabikes.com/product/un...uath-24-age-8/
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Old 09-23-19, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by gauvins
I must plan a trip to the shed and take a few measurements. (will do )
Measurements help, and can be quick and dirty for tire sizing.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html

I usually just look at the sidewall to look for one of the numbers above (507, 520, 540 (and for vintage, 547)), and hopefully a width designation.

Anyway, if you measure the rim diameter in cm/mm, subtract about 1cm, 10mm as per Sheldon Brown for the rim depth to get the approximate Bead Seat.

Depending on the seat height, putting a foot down can be problematic.

But, also be aware about the differences between riding in a straight line vs turning. Hopping over ruts or center grassy areas? Descents?
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Old 09-23-19, 07:15 PM
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100k for a 9yo is stout.
Having 12 and 8yo girls, I cant imagine doing 100k with them.
My oldest did 38 mi when she was 10 and my younger did that distance earlier this year. The pace and continued encouragement would be draining for them to have completed 100k.

Impressive that your youngest can accomplish that distance.

As for the gravel- its practice. Practice and notice. You guys do it right with calling out what's approaching so she can prepare.


The kenda kontender tire is 507 sized per isla.
https://www.islabikes.com/product/ch...tire-luath-24/

A 23mm tire is absurd for an 8 or 9yo. Just no upside to it unless they are competitive youth triathletes, and even then I would think a 25 or 28mm tire could be just as good overall. That's a super narrow tire to have to keep pumped for such a light body.
Odd that a youth bike company would spec a 23mm tire.


Unfortunately, there arent a lot of 24" tires that are light, supple, and as wide as you want(or that will fit the bike). The 507 size especially.

Circle back to- practice and warning.
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Old 09-23-19, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by HTupolev
I just went off their response to the review at the bottom of this page:

https://www.islabikes.com/product/un...uath-24-age-8/
Oh! Thanks. I was looking at the UK site (the American division what shut down).

So... 32mm max. (1.25 inch). Not much leeway.
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Old 09-23-19, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
100k for a 9yo is stout.
Having 12 and 8yo girls, I cant imagine doing 100k with them.
My oldest did 38 mi when she was 10 and my younger did that distance earlier this year. The pace and continued encouragement would be draining for them to have completed 100k.
Hmmm... I regret that I have to puncture the super kid impression, but it has been 100k over the week end, with a sleepover mid way. Still, quite a bit, but not like 100k in one fell swoop. Just so you know, we were close to mutiny at breakfast on day 2. Once under way, she was singing happily on her bike. Both girls (14 and 9) are used to 60-80 kms/day. Our 14 y-o was 11 on our first summer tour. Rare episodes of dejection. Lots of ice cream. And marshmallows over the campfire.

Originally Posted by mstateglfr
.

As for the gravel- its practice. Practice and notice. You guys do it right with calling out what's approaching so she can prepare.


The kenda kontender tire is 507 sized per isla.
https://www.islabikes.com/product/ch...tire-luath-24/

A 23mm tire is absurd for an 8 or 9yo. Just no upside to it unless they are competitive youth triathletes, and even then I would think a 25 or 28mm tire could be just as good overall. That's a super narrow tire to have to keep pumped for such a light body.
Odd that a youth bike company would spec a 23mm tire.
Thanks for the link.

WRT 23mm.... Frankly I don't know. These kids weigh next to nothing, which means that a small patch goes a long way. A wider tire will add weight and rolling resistance, not great for small legs.

Last edited by gauvins; 09-23-19 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 09-23-19, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
100k for a 9yo is stout.
Having 12 and 8yo girls, I cant imagine doing 100k with them.
My oldest did 38 mi when she was 10 and my younger did that distance earlier this year. The pace and continued encouragement would be draining for them to have completed 100k.

Impressive that your youngest can accomplish that distance.

As for the gravel- its practice. Practice and notice. You guys do it right with calling out what's approaching so she can prepare.


The kenda kontender tire is 507 sized per isla.
https://www.islabikes.com/product/ch...tire-luath-24/

A 23mm tire is absurd for an 8 or 9yo. Just no upside to it unless they are competitive youth triathletes, and even then I would think a 25 or 28mm tire could be just as good overall. That's a super narrow tire to have to keep pumped for such a light body.
Odd that a youth bike company would spec a 23mm tire.


Unfortunately, there arent a lot of 24" tires that are light, supple, and as wide as you want(or that will fit the bike). The 507 size especially.

Circle back to- practice and warning.
I think it depends on the family.

I'd have a lot of troubles motivating my nephew and niece for long rides, and they just don't have the endurance built up to keep going.

But, as a kid, a couple of years we did rides to my grandparent's house. Usually 2 days, with the first day Eugene to Roseburg, and the second day, Roseburg to Riddle. There was one hill in the middle with stretches of gravel. I don't remember anything special about it, other than it was a bit of a pain. I can't remember the exact ages, but I presume it was younger than about 14 for me. I can remember Mom was struggling some (and as a young teenager, not having a lot of patience).

We also did bike-a-thons, which I believe were about 80 miles. And, at least one was done on the little green bike (24" wheels). All I remember was struggling with a flat tire somewhere in the middle. I can't say that I finished that year, but I did finish some.

Anyway, if a kid is comfortable doing 10 or 20 mile rides, then they could likely do much longer rides.
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Old 09-24-19, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by gauvins
Hmmm... I regret that I have to puncture the super kid impression, but it has been 100k over the week end, with a sleepover mid way. Still, quite a bit, but not like 100k in one fell swoop. Just so you know, we were close to mutiny at breakfast on day 2. Once under way, she was singing happily on her bike. Both girls (14 and 9) are used to 60-80 kms/day. Our 14 y-o was 11 on our first summer tour. Rare episodes of dejection. Lots of ice cream. And marshmallows over the campfire.


Thanks for the link.

WRT 23mm.... Frankly I don't know. These kids weigh next to nothing, which means that a small patch goes a long way. A wider tire will add weight and rolling resistance, not great for small legs.
Here are some options that are CX designed. Knobs are less stable in general vs smooth, but when they are tight packed, its effectively a smooth tire for the most part. The knobs wont help any on scattered gravel, but the wider width will help.
https://www.biketiresdirect.com/prod...oaAofeEALw_wcB
https://www.biketiresdirect.com/prod...waAh98EALw_wcB



100K in a weekend over 2 rides is still fantastic and she should be really proud to see what she is capable of. Ha- I know what the edge of mutiny looks like from experience too!

As for the tire width and contact patch- You mentioned in the first post that you guys ride wider tires and were interested in a wider tire for the 24" bike. Now you seem to be reversing course by pointing out that it will add weight and rolling resistance. Yes, a wider tire may do those things, but that isnt new information and you were considering a wider tire before.
I simply dont find a benefit in 23mm tires for any recreational rider, really. My oldest daughter's 650c road bike came with 23mm tires and we swapped em out for 28s. She is a feather and doesnt need high pressure tires and the new tires are barely heavier than the old ones(i think 60g total between the two tires). For that 'sacrifice', she has a more stable contact patch for when she encounters mud/dirt/construction gravel. Personal benefit is she can go longer without pumping tires since she uses that bike around the neighborhood too on impulse riding with friends, so PSI isnt nearly as important.

A 60# kid is creating a seriously small contact patch on a 23mm tire. Hitting most anything that cant be easily crushed may cause the tire to deflect and bounce off the objects which means less stable riding compared to a wider tire that can roll over objects easier. Seems like stability is more valued than rolling resistance in your first post. If thats no longer the case and rolling resistance is now more valued than stability after time to think, cool then. Its always a tradeoff and neither is right or wrong.


Good luck on the search and figuring out what the best approach is to balance safety, confidence, and execution! Its really neat that you guys do this as a family.

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Old 09-24-19, 07:17 AM
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https://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/kenda-happy-medium-24-cyclocross-tire......................24" x 1.125". 30 TPI casing. ISO 32-507. Wire bead. Claimed weight is 347 g.
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Old 09-24-19, 08:12 AM
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Thank you everyone for your inputs. Very much appreciated.

Got a reply from Islabike (UK) customer support. They suggest 37-507 tires. Didn't like the knobby surface. Ordered Kenda Kwest, but reviews are mixed at best but most are for 700 or so sizes. We'll see...
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Old 09-24-19, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by gauvins
.... Didn't like the knobby surface. Ordered Kenda Kwest, but reviews are mixed at best but most are for 700 or so sizes. We'll see...
i've been running kendas for years here in china. decent quality....although sidewalls seem too weak for touring (30 pounds of bike, 185 pounds of handsome, 15-20 pounds of gear). light load should be no problem.

vpn is running slow this week.....national day coming up....censors working overtime....having trouble connecting.

not sure if i was using the kwest, having difficulty loading images. one i use has a flattened center, not a raised rolling bead, so rolls smooth on pavement. also has knobbies on the shoulders for dirt.


no, it was not kwest, it was kenda k935. they come in 24", might be able to find 1.5"

https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i2/8...!822632682.jpg

k184 does for sure come in 24x1.5

https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i2/8...!822632682.jpg

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Old 09-24-19, 09:33 AM
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I see you already ordered tires, but mentioning this anyway. I bought one of these for my folding bike to have as a spare. Appears to be reasonably supple, but I have not put it on the bike so I can't comment on how it rides.
https://www.amazon.com/Vee-Tire-Co-S...df_B00WYA5V8A/
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Old 09-24-19, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I see you already ordered tires, but mentioning this anyway. I bought one of these for my folding bike to have as a spare. Appears to be reasonably supple, but I have not put it on the bike so I can't comment on how it rides.
https://www.amazon.com/Vee-Tire-Co-S...df_B00WYA5V8A/
Was considering them. Will read your eventual review with considerable interest
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Old 09-24-19, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by gauvins
Was considering them. Will read your eventual review with considerable interest
Might take years for me to get around to a review. I did the ACA Big Bend van supported bike trip in 2018 with my folding bike. Since the bike takes a 507 X 40 tire, that is such a rarity that I decided to bring a spare just in case there was a tire failure. A 507 tire that is wider than 40 mm will not fit in my frame, so I can't just walk into a store and buy another tire.

And I do not put many miles on my folder, so far this year the total is zero. Thus, zero tire wear this year so far.

If you are curious, the bike is pictured in this link:
https://www.bikeforums.net/20336169-post735.html
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Old 09-24-19, 07:13 PM
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looks great. what tires were on?
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Old 09-25-19, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by gauvins
looks great. what tires were on?
Older Schwalbe Marathons, the generation of that tire before the Greenguard version. That older version was available in a 40mm width. With 24 inch wheels, it rolls quite nicely. Some people do not like the ride on small wheel folders like 16 or 20 but I have never felt that the wheel size impairs the ride at all.

That bike gets so few miles that the tires might last longer than me. I have never toured with that bike, but I am not ruling that out, if I go to Europe I might want to have a bike that folds in case I want to ride any trains or if I want to bring a bike inside a hostel in a high crime area, etc.

That Texas trip where I took the photos, I think I was at about the median for speed, half the group was faster and half were slower than me. Thus, it being a folder did not impair speed either. You can't see it in the photo but the rear hub is a three speed internally geared hub (Sram Dual Drive, now out of production), add the 8 speed cassette and it has 24 gears, range from 20.8 to 112.3 gear inches.
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Old 09-25-19, 03:41 PM
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Thanks.

One more thing -- what happens if you adjust seat + handlebars such that they are much lower. Would it fit a child or would it totally screw the geometry? I've never considered a folding as a child bike, but it might have been a better solution. We are still probably one frame away from adult size. (I have hand-me-down opportunities, so not all is lost) .
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Old 09-25-19, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by gauvins
Thanks.

One more thing -- what happens if you adjust seat + handlebars such that they are much lower. Would it fit a child or would it totally screw the geometry? I've never considered a folding as a child bike, but it might have been a better solution. We are still probably one frame away from adult size. (I have hand-me-down opportunities, so not all is lost) .
That particular bike comes in one size. I use an adjustable stem to get the bars up a bit higher. But I think that bike would have the geometry of about a 56 cm top tube if it had a top tube. Maybe a flat bar would work on it for a child but drop bars would put the bars too far forward for a child. Mine is from a UK company. I think they mostly made that model as a commuter that you could also fold and take on the train.

On an adult size regular bike I set up my bikes with a longer reach than I have on the folder. To compensate for the shorter reach, my bars are a few inches lower (relative to the saddle) on the folder than on my adult size bikes, I do that so I have about the same amount of forward lean in my lower back when I ride the folder.

The better folders have quality components like regular bikes. But some folders have unique components for that particular brand. And some folders have a shorter axle on the front hub than normal bikes. Mine has normal full size bike components with the exception of the smaller diameter wheels, but not all folders have regular bike components.

I suspect that you can easily find good used kid size bikes much cheaper than you can a quality folder. So a folder might not be much of a bargain if you are looking for a substitute for a kids sized bike.

I do not have much experience with other folders, so I can't really say much about them.
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