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1X drivetrain for all-round gravel / touring bike?

Old 02-07-20, 03:35 AM
  #101  
maartendc
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie
I don't get along fine with mine, I ended up putting an internally gear front crank on my bike to widen the gear range. My partner is slower up hills so I need lower gears to keep pace with her. When rolling down the other side I needed higher gears so I could pedal to overcome the freewheel drag from the IGH, otherwise she'd roll right on by me. So the bike is even heavier. At some stage I'd like to try the Pinion system, nearly did this year, but they are expensive and I'd need to mod the frame to suit.
I own an old Norta Town bike with Sturmey Archer IGH. Perhaps these systems have come a long way since this bike was made in the 70s or 80s, but I would not recommend it.

It is a hassle to take out the rear wheel due to the gear shift cable being attached to the hub. And when something breaks, there is very little you can do, except take the whole hub apart. A derailleur system is way more user-serviceable and adjustable in my opinion.

Originally Posted by DropBarFan
Can't beat the price. Actually I think hydraulic brakes make as much sense for touring bikes as racing bikes. Tourists ride long hours, have more weight to stop plus we're usually older so the finger-tip ease of hydro could be much more comfortable on descents. Additional cost for a potential touring groupset to include hydro is low, maybe $100-$200. I would guess that touring bikes with hydraulic brakes will be common 10 years from now; it took a long time for cable disc brakes to become standard on touring bikes.
Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I am content to stay with cables for shifting and braking. It works, is reliable, easy to fix with a minimum of tools. I can see the advantages of hydraulic for competition, but touring, I am not competing with anyone. I have had dust and mud cause some friction in cable systems, so I admit that there is another advantage to hydraulic systems. One day I had so much mud clogging up my rear V brake, it stopped releasing, so maybe there are rare times that a hydraulic system is more reliable?
If hydraulic systems work great for others, that is great. But, I am sticking with cable.
I had a shop mechanic really recommend NOT going for mechanical disc brakes. I don't know if he was just trying to sell me the more expensive groupset, but he seemed genuine. He was not the shop owner, but the mechanic, and he said the mechanical disc brakes are much more prone to needing readjustment and not work as well. The hydraulic systems are more difficult to set up, but once set up correctly just keep working.

Is this true? I am looking to buy a bike with SHimano Sora groupset, but the only thing I am worried about is the mechanical disc versus hydraulic on Tiagra or 105. I was contemplating going for Sora, but upgrading to hydraulic system later on. Which would be a pain, because the brake levers/ shifters between Sora, 105 and Tiagra are not interchangeable.

Originally Posted by Happy Feet
For me, a narrow range cassette isn't as attractive as a wide range. More than feeling a lack or being able to find the perfect gear on tours I more often wish for a lower gear on long sustained climbs. Paired with a decent high end I jones for as low as I can go.
I tend to agree for touring. For my race bike however, i get annoyed when I cannot find the perfect gear for the cadence / speed I am going. For touring, you are fully loaded, and if you cannot find the perfect gear, you just adjust your speed / cadence accordingly. It is not that big of a deal.

My around town bike has just 3 gears, so you really get used to not getting to be "picky" which gear you are turning. Just one gear for climbing, one for flat, and one for descending. That's it. LOL
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Old 02-07-20, 07:01 AM
  #102  
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Maart, mechanical disc systems can be excellent, but of course low end ones can be, well low end. Any well designed ones, e even old ones like my avid bb7s work great, but other newer designs are easier to set up apparently.
To me it's a non issue as I only have to take a few minutes to adjust pads after thousands of touring miles, so not a big deal at all.
but yes, good shimano hydros at reasonable prices are excellent also and self adjust.

so it depends

and I don't want hydro on my tours, in case I have to get my bike put on the roof of a truck or in a trunk and a housing gets damaged.... so for me mechanical is more robust and I've ridden heavily loaded in mountains a lot and they work fine.
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Old 02-07-20, 08:09 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by maartendc
I own an old Norta Town bike with Sturmey Archer IGH. Perhaps these systems have come a long way since this bike was made in the 70s or 80s, but I would not recommend it.

It is a hassle to take out the rear wheel due to the gear shift cable being attached to the hub. And when something breaks, there is very little you can do, except take the whole hub apart. A derailleur system is way more user-serviceable and adjustable in my opinion....
Yeah, modern IGH systems have come a long way since a Sturmey Archer three speed hub was the common IGH. I worked as a bike mechanic in the 70s, and yes I have taken those hubs apart to see what was wrong.

This is the touring forum, not the commuting forum, thus the most prevalent IGH you will find on a (touring) bike is a Rohloff. You occasionally hear of someone that had to send a Rohloff wheel back for repair, but the vast majority of those hubs will never have to be opened, assuming they had their annual oil changes, were not submerged when fording streams, etc.

That said, if disconnecting the shift cable from a Sturmey Archer three speed hub is a significant inconvenience for you, I suspect there will not be any IGH systems out there that you would be happy with.


Originally Posted by maartendc
...
I had a shop mechanic really recommend NOT going for mechanical disc brakes. I don't know if he was just trying to sell me the more expensive groupset, but he seemed genuine. He was not the shop owner, but the mechanic, and he said the mechanical disc brakes are much more prone to needing readjustment and not work as well. The hydraulic systems are more difficult to set up, but once set up correctly just keep working.

Is this true? I am looking to buy a bike with SHimano Sora groupset, but the only thing I am worried about is the mechanical disc versus hydraulic on Tiagra or 105. I was contemplating going for Sora, but upgrading to hydraulic system later on. Which would be a pain, because the brake levers/ shifters between Sora, 105 and Tiagra are not interchangeable.
...
I have no idea if you are mechanically inclined, some people are and some are not. If you can't fix a cable system and you plan to rely on others to fix your bike at a bike shop, it does not really matter what you use.

Being on the touring forum, presumably when your bike needs adjustment or repair, you will be far from home and possibly far from a bike shop.

When I build up a touring bike, I use components that are robust, easily repaired, easily replaced, readily available, and reliable. In my opinion, all those boxes are checked with a cable system.

That said, it also depends on where you are touring, if you will always be near a bike shop, then almost anything can be fixed without a problem. But a lot of my touring has been far from a bike shop.
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Old 02-07-20, 09:24 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by maartendc
For my race bike however, i get annoyed when I cannot find the perfect gear for the cadence / speed I am going. For touring, you are fully loaded, and if you cannot find the perfect gear, you just adjust your speed / cadence accordingly. It is not that big of a deal.
Yes and no. I'd argue that the same principles apply. More so, perhaps, with touring where a typical day involves 6h+ of pedalling. Your 3-speed city bike example is quite good : why not tour on a 3-speed bike? Probably because most of the time you'd prefer a different gear-inch. Doesn't matter that much when the average ride length is measured in minutes (city bike) but probably not the same when average ride is measured in hours. Someone in the thread mentioned that 1x became popular with cyclo-cross. A typical event lasts less than 1 hour.

Marathon shoes are not the same as sprint. Cushioned vs stiffness. A marathon is measured in hours, a sprint in seconds.

I'd rather ride a 3x10+ on tour
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Old 02-07-20, 09:58 AM
  #105  
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Lot's of good ideas being expressed in this thread.

Like the mechanical brake tangent, there is more to deciding which system works for the individual than just what's "best" in a singular sense. The terrain one is expecting to ride, serviceability (both in the field and by local shops), cost, what you are used to, weight of load, speed you wish to travel... It all points to why we usually don't come to consensus on one overall system for anything

I was thinking of modern IGH's in my example. On my fatbike, the only failure mode I can think of is snagging the rear derailer in tall grass (which has happened). On my road tourer that would likely never happen. An IGH would resolve that issue but raise the issue of field repair. It would have to match the low end of the gear range though and be affordable. For me at the moment, the Rohloff is still too dear to experiment with in that way and derailer systems are cheap and easy to work with so that is a hurdle I haven't looked to surmount yet.

I know SA still makes a variety of IGH's and I am also curious why we don't hear so much about the Shimano Nexus type IGH's for touring? At work I have two bikes that use the 7 and 8 speed hubs and, combined with a triple up front, would be an interesting set up.

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Old 02-07-20, 01:49 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
Lot's of good ideas being expressed in this thread.

... It all points to why we usually don't come to consensus on one overall system for anything

... and I am also curious why we don't hear so much about the Shimano Nexus type IGH's for touring? At work I have two bikes that use the 7 and 8 speed hubs and, combined with a triple up front, would be an interesting set up.
If we all came to agreement, there would only be one manufacturer of touring bikes and this forum would not exist.

IGH and a triple, never heard of anyone doing that. But I am not sure if a Shimano would hold up well for touring. I think they mostly are owned by commuters that do not want a derailleur system, they see the IGH as lower maintenance.

But I mixed an IGH with a cassette and rear derailleur. I use a Sram Dual Drive for wider gearing on my folding bike. The Dual Drive is now out of production, it was a three speed internal hub and was built with a freehub, I use an 11/32 eight speed cassette with it. The Dual Drive is very close to being equivalent to a 53/39/29 triple for gearing. But I think it is not better than a triple, I use it because I can't fit a front derailleur to the bike. I have heard that Sturmey Archer makes a similar IGH but have not seen one.
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Old 02-07-20, 05:05 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
But I mixed an IGH with a cassette and rear derailleur. I use a Sram Dual Drive for wider gearing on my folding bike. The Dual Drive is now out of production, it was a three speed internal hub and was built with a freehub, I use an 11/32 eight speed cassette with it. The Dual Drive is very close to being equivalent to a 53/39/29 triple for gearing. But I think it is not better than a triple, I use it because I can't fit a front derailleur to the bike. I have heard that Sturmey Archer makes a similar IGH but have not seen one.
Just looked that dual drive up. It's listed as $238 CAD but as you say, out of stock. That's a far cheaper price. I like the idea.

Is it gone for good? Er.. just read up on it. Too bad

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Old 02-07-20, 05:59 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
Just looked that dual drive up. It's listed as $238 CAD but as you say, out of stock. That's a far cheaper price. I like the idea.

Is it gone for good? Er.. just read up on it. Too bad
I think it has been out of production for two or three years, not enough demand for it. For a while i watched Ebay to see if a cheap one showed up to have as a spare, but never saw one at a bargain price. The only bikes that I have seen that used one (or its earlier version, the Sachs equivalent) were folding bikes. One really nice thing about it for small wheel bikes is that small wheel bikes are hard to get high enough gearing without absurdly large chainrings. But high gear in the dual drive is an overdrive, second gear is direct drive, thus you can use a smaller chainring and still get high gears. I think that makes it perfect for folding bikes that often have 16 or 20 inch wheels. Nutted axle only and 135mm spacing only.

I use a Sturmey Archer bar end shifter on it, the cable pull for the indexing appears to be nearly perfect.
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Old 02-10-20, 03:25 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I have no idea if you are mechanically inclined, some people are and some are not. If you can't fix a cable system and you plan to rely on others to fix your bike at a bike shop, it does not really matter what you use.
Being on the touring forum, presumably when your bike needs adjustment or repair, you will be far from home and possibly far from a bike shop.
When I build up a touring bike, I use components that are robust, easily repaired, easily replaced, readily available, and reliable. In my opinion, all those boxes are checked with a cable system.
That said, it also depends on where you are touring, if you will always be near a bike shop, then almost anything can be fixed without a problem. But a lot of my touring has been far from a bike shop.
For sure I do all my own maintenance. I would choose an easy to repair bike over a harder to repair one, as long as the systems both perform well.

Good info. I totally see your point, I would prefer something I can fix on the side of the road, versus having to stop and look for a bike shop. Cabled system seems more road-side fixable than hydraulic. Even touring in Europe, you don't want to go looking for a bike shop in the middle of Spain or Portugal somewhere where you don't speak the language perfectly either.

Originally Posted by djb
Maart, mechanical disc systems can be excellent, but of course low end ones can be, well low end. Any well designed ones, e even old ones like my avid bb7s work great, but other newer designs are easier to set up apparently.
To me it's a non issue as I only have to take a few minutes to adjust pads after thousands of touring miles, so not a big deal at all.
but yes, good shimano hydros at reasonable prices are excellent also and self adjust.

so it depends

and I don't want hydro on my tours, in case I have to get my bike put on the roof of a truck or in a trunk and a housing gets damaged.... so for me mechanical is more robust and I've ridden heavily loaded in mountains a lot and they work fine.
Thanks for the feedback! So you mean if the housing gets damaged, the liquid inside would leak out, rendering the brakes useless? That seems like a major downside, even though unlikely to happen in most scenarios. In that case, mechanical seems more durable indeed. I mean, you could snap a cable I suppose, but for long tours in the wilderness you could carry a spare brake cable somewhere.

Originally Posted by gauvins
Yes and no. I'd argue that the same principles apply. More so, perhaps, with touring where a typical day involves 6h+ of pedalling. Your 3-speed city bike example is quite good : why not tour on a 3-speed bike? Probably because most of the time you'd prefer a different gear-inch. Doesn't matter that much when the average ride length is measured in minutes (city bike) but probably not the same when average ride is measured in hours. Someone in the thread mentioned that 1x became popular with cyclo-cross. A typical event lasts less than 1 hour.
Thanks for the feedback. True as well.. the longer you are on the bike, the more small things start to annoy.
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Old 02-10-20, 03:42 AM
  #110  
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Yes damage could lead to fluid loss, no brakes. Likelihood of this happening? Small, but certainly not able to deal with. Same with a seal issue.

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Old 02-10-20, 07:04 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by maartendc
...
Thanks for the feedback! So you mean if the housing gets damaged, the liquid inside would leak out, rendering the brakes useless? That seems like a major downside, even though unlikely to happen in most scenarios. In that case, mechanical seems more durable indeed. I mean, you could snap a cable I suppose, but for long tours in the wilderness you could carry a spare brake cable somewhere.
....
I think most bike tourists do not carry spare cables or a spare tire or spare brake pads. Sometimes I carry a spare tire, sometimes not, and I only carry spare brake pads on longer tours. But I always carry a spare brake and spare shift cable, they are light enough that they are permanently in my bag of spares.

I saw a couple bike shops on my tour last summer. But I never saw a bike shop on my Iceland tour, and i was looking for one to buy a souvenir bike jersey, I know at least one or two existed but I never found one.

When I changed this shifter cable, I had three unbroken strands of wire remaining.

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Old 02-11-20, 10:47 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by maartendc
I had a shop mechanic really recommend NOT going for mechanical disc brakes. I don't know if he was just trying to sell me the more expensive groupset, but he seemed genuine. He was not the shop owner, but the mechanic, and he said the mechanical disc brakes are much more prone to needing readjustment and not work as well. The hydraulic systems are more difficult to set up, but once set up correctly just keep working.

Is this true? I am looking to buy a bike with SHimano Sora groupset, but the only thing I am worried about is the mechanical disc versus hydraulic on Tiagra or 105. I was contemplating going for Sora, but upgrading to hydraulic system later on. Which would be a pain, because the brake levers/ shifters between Sora, 105 and Tiagra are not interchangeable.

Hydraulic brakes don't require adjustment for cable stretch or pad wear. But for touring or general riding it's simple & quick to do the occasional adjustment for cable stretch/pad wear.

Gear range is more important than brake type. For loaded hilly touring the wide-range 3x9 Sora might be best but if one is OK with a bit less gear range then 2x Tiagra/105 with hydro brakes could be nice. For touring I think the main advantage of hydraulic brakes is the ease of braking.
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Old 02-11-20, 11:13 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by maartendc

Thanks for the feedback! So you mean if the housing gets damaged, the liquid inside would leak out, rendering the brakes useless? That seems like a major downside, even though unlikely to happen in most scenarios. In that case, mechanical seems more durable indeed. I mean, you could snap a cable I suppose, but for long tours in the wilderness you could carry a spare brake cable somewhere.


I've got hydraulic brakes and think about this when I tour.
My city riding is 2500 miles a year.
My touring is 400-1500 miles per year for the last 4 years with hydraulic brakes.
I don't think my hydraulic brakes knows when I'm on tour or not.
It seems like something I shouldn't worry about.
I can probably live with one set of brakes if the other is broken. At least, until I figure it out.
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Old 02-11-20, 11:29 PM
  #114  
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Couple of things:
Brake sensitivity isn't as bigger deal on a loaded touring bike, compared to say a MTB or road bike, as long as they aren't stupidly insensitive. But if you don't plan on dismantling your bike for travel the hydraulic will be OK, travelling; cable is better because of it's physical strength, you can hang the bars off it while packing your bike. With cable operated brakes just getting some decent pads, compressionless cable and not using el cheapo calipers is probably good enough. If you need more braking or sensitivity the cheap fix is to go as big as your forks will allow with your front disc. You can buy TRP Spyke or Spyre calipers off Aliexpress for next to nothing, but the stock pads will be junk compared to aftermarket. Spending the big bucks on the cables will bring the biggest results however.
Shimano IGH with a front derailleur or IGC; the biggest problem is the torque rating, you can't go too small on the front chain ring to get down to touring gear inches in the low 20s or high teens else you will exceed the 1.9:1 rating of the hub. The Rohloff can get down to 13 gear inches and still be OK with a 26" wheel. Pity, I'd fit one to my partners bike with a ATS speed drive otherwise, to save some bucks on a Rohloff.
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Old 02-12-20, 04:34 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie
Couple of things:
Brake sensitivity isn't as bigger deal on a loaded touring bike, compared to say a MTB or road bike, as long as they aren't stupidly insensitive. But if you don't plan on dismantling your bike for travel the hydraulic will be OK, travelling; cable is better because of it's physical strength, you can hang the bars off it while packing your bike.
Hmm, I did not even consider the actual travel process, packing the bike and flying with it. Seems like hydraulic would be more of a hassle / risk for that as well. I have never owned hydraulic, so not sure how "fragile" it is, but for my bike box I fly with, I do need to take my handlebars off, twist them around significantly, and tape them sideways to the frame. With cables, there is no issue at all. Would this be a problem with hydraulic lines? I have read some people suggest taking off the calipers to not put strain on the lines, but the bike I am getting has internal cable routing, so that is not an easy thing to do either.
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Old 02-12-20, 04:44 AM
  #116  
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Tree's point about traveling is an important one, and certainly a huge one in my experience. Despite my travels in other countries and wanting the robustness of mechanical for that, I know for a fact that my bike has had much rougher treatment in the box traveling, and me getting the dropbars fitting into amongst the frame and all that, cables pulled and pushed, and who knows what other forces in transit with baggage handlers and conveyor belts....

would never want a hydro setup just for this reason!
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Old 02-12-20, 06:11 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by maartendc
Hmm, I did not even consider the actual travel process, packing the bike and flying with it. Seems like hydraulic would be more of a hassle / risk for that as well. I have never owned hydraulic, so not sure how "fragile" it is, but for my bike box I fly with, I do need to take my handlebars off, twist them around significantly, and tape them sideways to the frame. With cables, there is no issue at all. Would this be a problem with hydraulic lines? I have read some people suggest taking off the calipers to not put strain on the lines, but the bike I am getting has internal cable routing, so that is not an easy thing to do either.
The other to remember with hydraulic is to fit pad spacers if you take wheels off, so the pistons don't pop out if the brake lever is operated. Not a biggie, but another thing to remember in that packing frenzy on the airport forecourt.
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Old 02-12-20, 10:52 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by djb
Tree's point about traveling is an important one, and certainly a huge one in my experience. Despite my travels in other countries and wanting the robustness of mechanical for that, I know for a fact that my bike has had much rougher treatment in the box traveling, and me getting the dropbars fitting into amongst the frame and all that, cables pulled and pushed, and who knows what other forces in transit with baggage handlers and conveyor belts....

would never want a hydro setup just for this reason!
I did a quick search in re flying with hydraulic brakes & I don't see much report of problems. Cable might be a bit robust but other parts can get damaged in flying too.
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Old 02-13-20, 07:01 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by DropBarFan
I did a quick search in re flying with hydraulic brakes & I don't see much report of problems. Cable might be a bit robust but other parts can get damaged in flying too.
ya I'm sure that with proper packing all is fine. I just know that the last two times on my return flights, packing my bike was a rather rushed affair and i do like that i don't have to worry about it. Combine this with the more simple maintenance repair and perfectly good braking, for me I'm still glad i have mechanical.
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Old 02-13-20, 09:46 AM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by djb
ya I'm sure that with proper packing all is fine. I just know that the last two times on my return flights, packing my bike was a rather rushed affair and i do like that i don't have to worry about it. Combine this with the more simple maintenance repair and perfectly good braking, for me I'm still glad i have mechanical.
I tend to agree with this.

I've had the opportunity to use hydro brakes on FS mtbs and there is a time and place when they are more helpful. Sometimes, descending a steep track I would think.. wish I could stop better. Or, on a long sustained section.. wish my hand wasn't cramping so much (especially in the winter when it numbs out the fingers).

But touring I don't have those thoughts with mechanical disc or even well set up canti's. At times I think other things like.. wish I had a lower gear or wish I were more aero but not that I could stop better. Mechanical seems to meet the thresh hold of acceptable performance that way.
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Old 02-15-20, 12:36 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
I tend to agree with this.

I've had the opportunity to use hydro brakes on FS mtbs and there is a time and place when they are more helpful. Sometimes, descending a steep track I would think.. wish I could stop better. Or, on a long sustained section.. wish my hand wasn't cramping so much (especially in the winter when it numbs out the fingers).

But touring I don't have those thoughts with mechanical disc or even well set up canti's. At times I think other things like.. wish I had a lower gear or wish I were more aero but not that I could stop better. Mechanical seems to meet the thresh hold of acceptable performance that way.
For me, cable discs stop easily enough most of the time but once in a while require uncomfortable amount of grip. But upgrading to hydro is too expensive for something that is only going to help in rare situations so I'm sticking with cable disc for now. In the future though I think hydraulic brakes will become common on touring bikes, just like how cable discs have become standard.
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Old 05-06-20, 07:13 PM
  #122  
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Apologies I didn't read this entire thread.

I see there is a company offering a derailleur cage extender and an 11 speed 11-50 cassette. Might be interesting for people considering touring on 1x. I had thought that the largest cog available was 42.

Last edited by Wiggle; 05-06-20 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 05-09-20, 03:16 AM
  #123  
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What about considering an Apex1 with an eThirteen 9-46t cassette
You'd have to run an XD driver, but you could get 17.56 to 89.94 gear inches on a 700x32 tire with a 30t chainring ...
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Old 05-09-20, 08:27 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by SquishyBiker
What about considering an Apex1 with an eThirteen 9-46t cassette
You'd have to run an XD driver, but you could get 17.56 to 89.94 gear inches on a 700x32 tire with a 30t chainring ...
kaching!
credit card please!

real life costs please, new
cassette replacement cost please
real life chain life expectancy please

you get the idea
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