Next tool acquisition - torque wrench
08-22-20, 10:15 AM
#26
Clark W. Griswold
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For a bit more money, wouldn't it be better investing in this?
https://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Torqu...ct_top?ie=UTF8
Every single one of the written reviews is highly positive, and it's not much money.
https://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Torqu...ct_top?ie=UTF8
Every single one of the written reviews is highly positive, and it's not much money.
08-22-20, 10:56 AM
#27
Senior Member
For a bit more money, wouldn't it be better investing in this?
https://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Torqu...ct_top?ie=UTF8
Every single one of the written reviews is highly positive, and it's not much money.
https://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Torqu...ct_top?ie=UTF8
Every single one of the written reviews is highly positive, and it's not much money.
I have yet to need to tighten anything more than 5.5nm so the higher torque capability of the more expensive model is not necessary for me.
Last edited by DeadGrandpa; 08-22-20 at 11:01 AM.
09-01-20, 01:34 PM
#28
Senior Member
Comments on the two quotes that follow?
And here's another similar commentary from someone else:
The “feel-method” of preloading threaded components results in a +/- 35% error. However, using a torque wrench produces an error of +/- 25%, which is not much of an improvement over the “feel-method.”
The problem is that torque is a lousy method of preloading components. Did you know that approximately 90% of the torque required to makeup a fastener is consumed by friction? So, this means that slight variations in frictional conditions may lead to dramatic changes in bolt preload. I’m not making this up, I found this at the following address: www.boltscience.com/pages/tighten.htm.
In real terms, a lubricated bolt at a given torque will have a whale of a different preload than a non-lubricated bolt. Perhaps we subconsciously make adjustments for varying frictional characteristics when torquing by feel, which may narrow the error gap between the “torque wrench” and “torque feel” method.
The problem is that torque is a lousy method of preloading components. Did you know that approximately 90% of the torque required to makeup a fastener is consumed by friction? So, this means that slight variations in frictional conditions may lead to dramatic changes in bolt preload. I’m not making this up, I found this at the following address: www.boltscience.com/pages/tighten.htm.
In real terms, a lubricated bolt at a given torque will have a whale of a different preload than a non-lubricated bolt. Perhaps we subconsciously make adjustments for varying frictional characteristics when torquing by feel, which may narrow the error gap between the “torque wrench” and “torque feel” method.
So I finally got an old beam style torque wrench because the click type that I have scares me. The click type seem like they can go out of calibration quite easily. Anyway, I'm tightening a bolt on my seat post (manufacturer spec is 9 Nm) and my beam wrench barely reads any torque (maybe 0.5 Nm) and I feel like I've tightened the bolt at least 2 full rotations. It feels like the bolt head is starting to strip a little but I still haven't reached any relative torque (according to the beam wrench).
I start thinking about how I'm not registering much torque on the wrench, even though I know i'm putting a lot into it. I realize that I grease pretty much every bolt on my bike (finish line teflon grease), this is probably affecting every torque value on every bolt. I've heard that friction accounts for about 85%-90% of the torque value on a bolt, so adding grease to a bolt probably affects the proper torque spec by a ton. I think i'm just going to do "good-en-tight" from now on, even on carbon parts. Using a torque wrench on a greased bolt (since most of the bolts are 4-5mm I feel like they need grease) seems like you're just asking to over tighten something.
Anybody else think the same or different?
I start thinking about how I'm not registering much torque on the wrench, even though I know i'm putting a lot into it. I realize that I grease pretty much every bolt on my bike (finish line teflon grease), this is probably affecting every torque value on every bolt. I've heard that friction accounts for about 85%-90% of the torque value on a bolt, so adding grease to a bolt probably affects the proper torque spec by a ton. I think i'm just going to do "good-en-tight" from now on, even on carbon parts. Using a torque wrench on a greased bolt (since most of the bolts are 4-5mm I feel like they need grease) seems like you're just asking to over tighten something.
Anybody else think the same or different?
09-01-20, 01:58 PM
#29
Senior Member
The Giustaforza torque wrench is the best one I have found and I have a three different tools. Very precise and a professional-level tool.
https://www.effettomariposa.eu/en/products/giustaforza-1-8/
https://www.effettomariposa.eu/en/products/giustaforza-1-8/
Last edited by drlogik; 09-01-20 at 02:23 PM.
09-01-20, 02:01 PM
#30
Really Old Senior Member
Forget the advice so far and get a modestly priced digital torque adapter, such as Performance Tool M206. I combine it with different adapters to get a reading on any torque I apply that is suspect for one reason or another. You change units or mode of operation by pressing a button. Yes people give advice in good faith but they were gaining their torque wrench experience in another epoch.
Why would someone pay $100's for a good voltmeter when Harbor Freight has a voltmeter they often give away with a minimal purchase?
BTW, my HF meter reads 8% high on DC. Makes a 12V battery a 13V.
09-01-20, 02:16 PM
#31
Senior Member
Anybody that assumes that something is accurate because it has a digital read out is dreaming!
Same goes for cheap mechanical torque wrenches and high-end mechanical torque wrenches. If I had a $5,000 dollar bike I would not trust it with a $15 dollar torque wrench. One of my most trusted tools is that Giustaforza I showed in a post above. Expensive? Yes. (around $120 bucks) Worth it? Every penny. I know it will always torque to the correct setting.
Cheap tools cost more in the long-run.
-
Last edited by drlogik; 09-01-20 at 02:26 PM.
09-01-20, 02:27 PM
#32
Senior Member
The problem is that torque is a lousy method of preloading components. Did you know that approximately 90% of the torque required to makeup a fastener is consumed by friction? So, this means that slight variations in frictional conditions may lead to dramatic changes in bolt preload. I’m not making this up, I found this at the following address: www.boltscience.com/pages/tighten.htm
Anyway, I'm tightening a bolt on my seat post (manufacturer spec is 9 Nm) and my beam wrench barely reads any torque (maybe 0.5 Nm) and I feel like I've tightened the bolt at least 2 full rotations. It feels like the bolt head is starting to strip a little but I still haven't reached any relative torque (according to the beam wrench).
I start thinking about how I'm not registering much torque on the wrench, even though I know i'm putting a lot into it. I realize that I grease pretty much every bolt on my bike (finish line teflon grease), this is probably affecting every torque value on every bolt. I've heard that friction accounts for about 85%-90% of the torque value on a bolt, so adding grease to a bolt probably affects the proper torque spec by a ton.
I start thinking about how I'm not registering much torque on the wrench, even though I know i'm putting a lot into it. I realize that I grease pretty much every bolt on my bike (finish line teflon grease), this is probably affecting every torque value on every bolt. I've heard that friction accounts for about 85%-90% of the torque value on a bolt, so adding grease to a bolt probably affects the proper torque spec by a ton.
09-01-20, 02:29 PM
#33
Senior Member
As far as greasing or not greasing screws and bolts or using/not using Loctite, read the manufacturer's recommendation for the specific application. Some applications require a "dry" fastener, others have special settings if using a lubricant or Loctite. If you torque-down a screw to a spec of 5 Nm's but it is greased and the application calls for a "dry" fastener, then you will over-torque the fastener almost every time.
09-01-20, 02:35 PM
#34
Senior Member
As far as greasing or not greasing screws and bolts or using/not using Loctite, read the manufacturer's recommendation for the specific application. Some applications require a "dry" fastener, others have special settings if using a lubricant or Loctite. If you torque-down a screw to a spec of 5 Nm's but it is greased and the application calls for a "dry" fastener, then you will over-torque the fastener almost every time.
With lower NM bolts, like those on bikes, going by feel actually adjusts for real world factors better than any torque wrench can. As he says, "The problem is that torque is a lousy method of preloading components."
09-01-20, 02:36 PM
#35
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Anybody that assumes that something is accurate because it has a digital read out is dreaming!
Why would someone pay $100's for a good voltmeter when Harbor Freight has a voltmeter they often give away with a minimal purchase?
BTW, my HF meter reads 8% high on DC. Makes a 12V battery a 13V.
Why would someone pay $100's for a good voltmeter when Harbor Freight has a voltmeter they often give away with a minimal purchase?
BTW, my HF meter reads 8% high on DC. Makes a 12V battery a 13V.
09-01-20, 03:00 PM
#36
Really Old Senior Member
I stand by my recommendation. On the electronic side, I work with Fluke meters, Tektronix oscilloscopes and, on the mechanical, with Mitutoyo calipers. The particular torque adapter has about 2% accuracy, better than what you can achieve with typical analog wrenches. Foremost it is extremely easy to use, suitable for different torque ranges with units and operation mode flipped by pressing a button. Yes, the analog torque wrenches I have are consistent with the recommended adapter.
I stand by my statement. Just because you allegedly know the accuracy of your tools, you'd be in the minority.
09-01-20, 03:30 PM
#37
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09-01-20, 03:44 PM
#38
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Worth checking is that torque settings work for both clockwise and counterclockwise directions... pedals and cranks can have reverse threading needs. More important for the heavier duty (eg. 3/8" tool) torque wrench obviously.
To be honest with myself, I find I can do most everything with these 2 tools: A Ritchey Torque Key 5Nm (<$25) and this thing which i recently bought and seems to work:
https://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-ARM60...8996632&sr=8-1
To be honest with myself, I find I can do most everything with these 2 tools: A Ritchey Torque Key 5Nm (<$25) and this thing which i recently bought and seems to work:
https://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-ARM60...8996632&sr=8-1
09-01-20, 03:52 PM
#39
Really Old Senior Member
Unfortunately a mediocre Harbor Freight calculator beats the best slide rule hands down. Are there many people left who insist on the last being superior? Maybe not anymore. I once heard a statement saying that convictions never die, only people that cling to them do.
ignore list-
09-01-20, 04:54 PM
#41
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This is interesting to know. I've noticed many fasteners come with a dab of grease. There were a number of those in the 8000 group I installed awhile back. Should I have cleaned that off before I installed them?
09-01-20, 05:19 PM
#42
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I've noticed many fasteners come with a dab of grease.
09-01-20, 05:27 PM
#43
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Yes, yellow/greenish grease on the Shimano stuff. I've also seen the thread locker on the rotor bolts, as you said.
09-01-20, 06:21 PM
#44
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The safe bet is to call the manufacturer and ask what to torque them to.
09-01-20, 06:33 PM
#45
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What bikes parts need a torque wrench ?
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09-01-20, 06:36 PM
#46
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For Shimano at least, all the torque specs are in the installation instructions. I was just trying to point out that "Bike torque specs are almost certainly based on dry screws" is incorrect.
09-01-20, 07:03 PM
#47
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You'd think that if general consensus is you should grease threads, then it wouldn't make much sense for the component makers to spec torque values based on dry, right?
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09-01-20, 07:16 PM
#48
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Especially when the instructions specify grease or the fastener comes greased. 
09-01-20, 07:56 PM
#49
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"tighten 'er 'til she strips, then back off a hair."
09-01-20, 10:17 PM
#50
Senior Member
Given how cheap a top quality anti-seize is, and how well it works esp in giving you a better feel for what's going on as the bolt is going in and stretching, there's really no reason not to use it. Some say it's messy, but it's just finely ground soft metals so it's really not a big deal. It's not like it's some toxic concoction.