Kommisar89

I thought this had been covered a million times but as I searched the forums I could not come up with a definitive answer. I know Campagnolo spindles used ISO taper in the C&V period. I think they continued to use ISO taper until Campagnolo retired the square taper design for Ultra-Torque a couple of years ago. But I've seen references to Campagnolo having made a change to the spindle taper in the early 90's so that modern square taper Campagnolo bottom brackets would not fit classic cranks. Can anyone confirm or deny that rumor? I could not find anything from Sheldon Brown, Campagnolo, or Phil Wood making any reference to "old" Campy taper and "new" Campy taper so I'm betting there was no change and it's all just ISO. I'd just like to be sure. Thanks.

Ex Pres 

Campy tapers pre '94 are not ISO. Early stronglight spindles are, and some others. Unfortunately they are not JIS either, just kind of their own Italian design.

FWIW, I took a circa '81 Stronglight crank (ISO) and placed it on an ISO spindle, a 70's Campy spindle, and a JIS spindle. The q-factor went from "X"mm on an ISO taper, to "X+3" on the 70's Campy, an measured "x+6" on the JIS.

Kommisar89

Oh great, now you're adding more confusion. Just what I needed Sigh...

John E

I have never had a problem swapping older European and SunTour spindles and cranks, including Campagnolo. Shimano was the odd man out in the 1970s, but evidently by the mid 1990s everyone else had conformed to them, presumably for a slightly stronger spindle.

Kommisar89

Well, what I'd like to do is use a nice modern Campagnolo light weight, hollow spindle, cartridge bottom bracket like a Centaur or Chorus with a vintage Record Strada crank. Hence why I need to know if Campagnolo ever changed the spindles. In fact, IIRC, it might have been you that said you had problems trying something like that John. If you look at modern square taper Campy spindles today they specify ISO taper. But now Bob Baker is saying the old ones were NOT ISO. So now I really don't know. Alas, if only I had a Sutherland's.

Charles Wahl

I think that Bob Barker's correct, according to all the info I've been able to dig up, and also based on my own measurement of various spindles. As Sutherland's says, the end square goes from smallest to largest: ISO, Campy, and JIS. I also believe that Suntour Superbe (different from other Suntour, reportedly), and Sugino Mighty (MW) spindles are Campy clones, as far as my dial caliper can tell, anyway.

And also (though I have no first hand knowledge here), I believe that Campy did change from their own standard to ISO in the 90s. Phil Wood's site has always recommended JIS for older Campy cranks.

Kommisar89

Ok so it would seem that if you attempted to use a modern Campy bottom bracket with a vintage Campy crank, the modern spindle would be too narrow and the crank might bottom on the spindle. Well crud! I should probably call or email Phil Wood to verify what they recommend. As I mentioned, they only list "Campagnolo" on their site so they say nothing about older and newer that I could find.

Ex Pres 

What you could look for is the early Chorus/Record 111mm cartridge BB, used from about '88 until the early 90's change. Even then the spindle length is a little shorter than the old ones (112mm pre/ 114.5 post CPSC). I don't know what length that period triples use, but it may be right.

Charles Wahl

Try here, look on p. 14:
https://www.philwood.com/index/2008%20Catalog.pdf

sced

I am interested in this too and am confused.

My question for pre-1990ish Campy double-chainring cranks, what would be the best spindle lengths for recent English and Italian threaded cartridge BBs?

Also, what were the original Campy spindle lengths for pre-1990ish English and Italian threaded BBs for Campy double-chainring cranks?

Thanks.

Kommisar89

Thanks. But now I'm more confused than ever. So Phil Wood is saying that old Campagnolo and JIS are essentially the same (or at least compatible). But I thought we agreed that wasn't the case. I need to hole up in a cave somewhere and ponder this for a while 'cause it's really making my brain hurt. And if that's true it doesn't help me. It would mean I'd have to use a ShimaNO! bottom bracket on my baby! Or maybe spring for a Phil. I'm liking Bob Barker's suggestion to find a late 80's - early 90's Chorus or Record cartridge BB more and more).

Road Fan

Do you need an NR BB? Sounds like you're trying to get around using one. I have one, unused, NIB, for an English BB. The spindle is a 68-SS-120. Check it out at Greg Parker's commercial site, https://www.bicycleclassics.com/, he's put together a really good compatibility guide for early Campy cranksets, as well as being a great but $$ source of NOS parts. Mine has cups, lockring, spindle, crank bolts, and original caged bearings. Greg doesn't really sort out the entire history, he's definitely focused on the early days, and except for a few key items, he doesn't do Japanese.

Kommissar, you could use that site to sort out the wild variations in NR cranks and BBs, if you haven't, and see if you can use mine. PM me if you're interested.

Butcher

.
I have the exact same set up. Well to tell you the truth I have a NOS Record crank that is around the late 70's era. I have a 102mm Record spindle for the last years of the square mount Record cranks. I will have to dig the parts up but if you are wondering if the taper will fit and bolt up I will post before Sunday to let you know.

Road Fan

My recollection is that JIS and Campy have the same taper angles, but JIS has a smaller cross-section. If they had different taper angles and you tried to install, you'd get uneven stress distrubution in the aluminum of the crankset, which I would not want on my bike. As it is they'll be evenly stressed, but because of the smaller cross section, the Campy crank will fit on teh JIS axle with narrower Q factor or tread, and it might end up rubbing on the cups! So it would bolt togetner ok, but not work ok.

Torqueing a crank onto a taper, the aluminum crank expands in a known way, that over the years has proven reliable. There are other long-term stress issues in NR and SR cranks, but not related to the tapers. I'd be very nervous about upsetting that balanced situation that Campy engineered, by substituting potentialy non-compatible BB parts. Getting another replacement crank is expensive, and only promises to become more so.

Road Fan

One source who I know could absolutely nail the answers for you, Kommisar, is Peter Chisolm at Vecchio's Bicicletteria in Boulder, CO. He takes phone calls. I always just look up their website to get the phone number.

You could just drive up there, as long as Monument Pass on I-25 is not closed!

Kommisar89

Exactly. I was thinking something lighter to save weight. It just might not be practicle however.

Kommisar89

Yeah I need to get up there just to look around if nothing else. There's another C&V oriented shop in Denver as well. I should just make it a day trip.

greyg8r

My 1989 Klein has the original bottom bracket. I recently replaced the pressed in bb bearings but that is another story.

I replaced the original Chorus first generation crankset with a 2000 model Chorus 10speed crankset and it worked beautifully.

Charles Wahl

I believe that JIS has the largest spindle end size of all of them. Old (pre-ISO) Campy is slightly smaller, not larger. That's what my dial caliper says, anyway.

Charles Wahl

You can download an electronic version (presumably an older edition) of Sutherlands here. The crank spindle taper discussion is in the Cranks chapter, not Bottom Brackets.

Road Fan

What's the C&V shop, and where? Mrs. Road Fan and I might have a trip to Denver in our near future.

Kommisar89

CycleAnalyst, Inc
722 S. Pearl Street, Denver CO 80209
303-722-3004

Road Fan

I think I remember that place; it's near Listen Up, the audio store, right?

Kommisar89

LOL...not a clue. I'm a "redneck" from down here in the 'Springs, not one of those sophisticated Denverites. My customers and vendors are in the Tech Center and my buddy in Denver lives nearby near Cherry Creek so I've never had much reason to go past there.

Shucks I'll have to take me a vacation and go visit the big city

If you have time, PM me and maybe we can do lunch or something when you're there.

TheValveSource

I just went through the spindle dilemna as I have two sets of Campy cranks from the early to mid 90's. I talked to the Campy guy in California who had me email one of their product guys in Italy.

After getting confusing info from both of them, I resigned myself to having to buy Campy sealed bottom brackets from the mid 90's.........UNTIL

In speaking to a very well versed Campy guy that works for one of the larger mail order bike stores in the country he told me that the Token and Accura bottom brackets sold on Ebay as being suitable for pre 94 cranks work great.

I'm not so much of a Campy snob that the idea of paying right around a $100 for a new sealed bearing bottom bracket that weighed a lot less than a conventional bb wasn't appealing.

I bought a Ital thread and a English thread. They slid right in and are very smooth.