Creakyknees

Was talking with a buddy this weekend who's even older and grumpier than me. He's also a framebuilder and race promoter, which partially explains the grumpy part.

Anyway, one of his favorite topics is the high cost and relatively short life of modern race bikes vs a good old steel / alu bike.

He says he's seen case after case like this:
- Dad and kids will show up at a race to watch,
- maybe Dad is a casual rider, can tell that the race bikes are not the same as his
- Dad checks a few prices, multiplies by # of kids, decides that next weekend we are playing soccer.
- similar pattern with prospective cat 5's

My buddy's proposed solution for Juniors and 4/5 racers: define a set of rules about the bike that generally follow these guidelines:
- "street" price at $1000 or less
- sufficient frame durability that it can be crashed, knocked around as kids do, generally abused and still be safe / reliable to race on, even to hand-me-down to later racers
- minimal high-zoot equipment, rules prohibiting upgrades to carbon tubies for example.

The idea being, reduce the price of entry for new racers, get the emphasis away from gear and toward learning how to train and race. Inspired a bit by the keirin / NJS rules.

Thoughts?

MDcatV

not necessary. gear doesnt win races and the jrs. i know are on pretty inexpensive bicycles. might get a handfull of additional racers nationwide, but i'd be willing to bet the increase in jr. racers would not be significant.

also, i've seen lots of broken steel frames (including one of my own), and alu frames.

El Diablo Rojo

I'm guessing your buddy builds Al/Steel bikes. I've been approached by dads at races asking about my bike and what it costs to race. I tell them flat out I could do just as well in most races on a bike costing 1/3rd of what mine would cost retail. Most go away with a pretty good understanding that most guys with big dollar bikes do it cause they dig big dollar bikes. Any parent that shows up to any sporting event that they have little or no knowledge of and doesn't ask questions about the sport to those who participate is an idiot. I will say this, I want to get my 10 year old daughter a road bike but the 26'' road bikes are 700-800 dollars. That stupid money for a bike of that type.

Creakyknees

He prefers steel but works in all 3 materials. Doesn't do ti.

I think the guys here are the exception... ask the typical rec rider or prospective cat 5, or just hang out in the road forum for a while... lots of guys seem to be under the impression that without an $8k bike you won't be competitive.

Do you guys think money is an obstacle to newbies in any way?

saratoga

It's lile any sport that involves a wheeled vehicle. There's a relatively high cost of entry if you're starting from ground zero vs the traditional ball sports.

Try getting either yourself or your kids into MX. There's a huge contingent of young kids in that and the costs to stay in it are fairly significant. People don't realize that in most cases that the high zoot equipment comes later on as you become more experienced and dedicated. Chances are, most everyone here that's dedicated a substantial amount of time to the sport didn't start out with everything they have today.

Most people can be competitive on their $600 OCR3 when just getting into racing at the 5 level.

mike868y

No. I ride/race no better on my 16lb tarmac than I did on my 21lb fuji newest.

mike868y

I used to race mx. It makes cycling look like pocket change.

Nate552

I saw a Top Gear show where they did some rally car racing in Sweden. Kids, old people, etc participated. To keep the cost of race cars down and fair, the rules were that after the race, and competitor could walk up to you and offer, say $500 for your car and you had to take it. Therefore, no one wanted to race an expensive car. I forgot what kind of racing that is called. Imagine doing a crit where you could do that.

Voodoo76

The problem with most of us on this board is that we would be speculating. We are on the inside looking out.

I'm not sure if intimidation over equipment cost, or a perception of what is really necessary to be competitive is a barrier to growth. However there are quite a few posts on the Road Forum asking if perfectly good equipment is OK for a 5.

On the other hand a lot of Tracks have loaner bike programs for Jr's or beginners. And there doesn't seem to be a huge influx of Jr Track racers as a result.

IMO a bigger barrier to staying in the sport is the training required. You don't get dropped in a Soccer game or a Hoop game if you goofed off for a couple of weeks. Most of us can't dog it and get by even at lower levels.

We don't need restricted equipment, what we need is a restricted training category

Staggerwing

I don't race, but about the only way I can see this working is some kind of spec series, like Formula Ford in the auto racing world.

If it was done correctly, perhaps the manufacturer could be tapped to help support. Maybe junior racers would be able to buy 1 cycle per year at say a 25% discount.

A series based around something like an Allez Double Steel ($610 list) might level the field a bit and make things interesting. Not much you can trick out on that setup, although, you still might have to force participants to select their race wheels from a series pool, to keep some uber engineer dad from pulling a Penske (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Donohue).

KD5NRH

Better plan; everybody brings a BOB trailer that doesn't count towards their total expenditure. First $500 is overlooked, but for every $100 of total equipment value over that, they get a cinderblock added to the trailer.

Then we'll get to see who can really ride, and who can just spend.

Voodoo76

Claimers. In horse racing it's used to discourage sand bagging.

saratoga

You're not kidding. Add to that the tow vehicle, trailer, fuel, **** that gets broken on a regular basis like clutch and brake levers, clutches, tools, tires, plastic, gear, boots, chest protectors, helmets, knee braces, HANS, entry fees, race fees, practice fees, pressure washer, suspension work and on and on and on. Not to mention the price of the bike to begin with and the fact that most people have to pack all their crap up and drive half way to the middle of nowhere just to practice for the weekend.

I'm 175% glad that I got out of it.

KD5NRH

Better plan; everybody brings a BOB trailer that doesn't count towards their total expenditure. First $500 is overlooked, but for every $100 of total equipment value over that, they get a cinderblock added to the trailer.

Then we'll get to see who can really ride, and who can just spend.

MDcatV

yes. but i dont think it's the largest barrier to entry for most newbies.

i think the barriers, in any order are:
-folks think bicycling is something for kids/paperboys, or "exercise" like going to the gym. not something you compete in.
-fear of crashing
-the amount of time committment racing requires, i'll go out on a limb and speculate that >95% of regular cyclists dont race, it's too hard
-it's cruel on the ego vs. a traditional team sport where one side wins (and everyone on the team wins) as opposed to 1 of X # of riders wins and everyone else loses.
-it's easy to find a soccer league, baseball league, football league, softball league, whatever, they're school sports or municipal/church organized leagues with establishedfixed leagues and locations of events. but with racing, it's difuse. if you're not involved, it's difficult to find out about events. even many rec riders who log 10k mi/yr. have no idea if there's a race on the NRC that takes place annually 2 blocks from their house. case in point, i had a meeting yesterday with a DC attorney who rides 150 mi/week (in his words) and works in an office that sits on PA avenue. on 7/13, there was a race called the Capital Criterium that raced around his building. the event was well promoted with radio spots, press releases, etc. you'd think a cycling enthusiast would have known about it. when i brought it up the the atty, he had no idea it occurred.

cost is a barrier to entry, but I speculate it to be low on the list of barriers.

wens

I swam through HS and college. Bike racing is cheap by comparison. Coaching/pool time is probably about $100/month, it's a year round sport, so $1000 bucks a year considering the breaks between seasons. Then cheap training suits, at 2x$30 a pop (more like $50-60 for girls), goggles at 2x$20 a pop (although swedes are only about $5 each, probably why they're so popular at higher levels), and meet entries, which we'll say cost the same as entering races. We're up to $1100 dollars, and that's without getting legskins or anything like that (currently about $150 a pop and only good for a couple meets, and are more expensive for girls.)

All told you can easily spend $2 grand for a year, without having the resale value of a bike or anything else to show for it.

I think if cycling is going to become quasi-mainstream high schools need to have teams, but I doubt many public schools would spring for it.

ETA: psychologically the $$$ barrier to entry is high in cycling, because most of the money comes out upfront rather than $100/month or whatever, not sure how to overcome that though.

Brian Ratliff

Two words: "Loaner bikes"

At the track, loaner bikes are the norm because people are usually just getting their feet wet with track cycling and don't own a proper track bike. Basic frame, basic wheels, downtube shifting; bikes should be no more than $700 apiece. Have every licensed racer in your state donate $20 and you can have an easy fleet of a dozen loaner bikes to rent out at $5 apiece/race day. Put them all in a trailer or two and require the race promoter to send a person out to fetch it if he wants to hold his race.

Basically, make it so it's not a prerequisite to have a road bike to race. And also, it makes it plain that you don't need a super fancy bike to compete.

You want to know the one thing that really raised the barrier to entry into road racing? STI. When Shimano put out STI and everyone else followed, the price of shifters went up 10x and the overall price of an entry level bike doubled.

carpediemracing 

I don't think money is an issue for Juniors. If the kid wants to race, he's going to make it happen. Birthday money, holiday money, whatever, it'll go to cycling. And if the kid is short some $$, so be it. I raced on a relatively inexpensive first bike (straight gauge steel tubing, i.e. heavy frame, basic parts). I used it for 2-3 years. I didn't own a car until after college. I didn't wear booties for the first couple winters I rode, and I used hand-me-down cycling gear for jackets, tights. I even wore garden gloves the first winter I rode.

At the same time, I think it's good when more experienced riders with lots of extra gear give some of it away. I've given away a lot of clothing (much of it new), wheels, cranks, various drivetrain parts, etc. My first booties came from a sympathetic teammate who gave me his old ones. A few layers of duct tape and it was fine. Ditto my tights (non-chamois). My first jersey came from sending in UPC codes from the back of granola bar packages. You make things work when it's your passion.

Granted, I'm from a suburbia kind of environment, where a lot of kids went to college, so there's a certain amount of money around. But, still, sacrifice a few electronic gadgets and you can get yourself a pretty decent bike.

I think it's more a case of the parents not really understanding what's going on. My parents didn't know what bike racing was all about, and every now and then I had to disobey them and go training when they specifically forbade me to ride my bike (for whatever reason, usually because I just crashed and they felt I shouldn't ride anymore). When they realized that I wasn't going to stop, they accepted it. They supported me emotionally the whole time, but initially they probably wanted me to do some less dangerous thing, like playing the violin (which I also pestered them to let me do).

cdr

Walter

Yes, but it always has been.

Some good points, especially the first one. The track point is interesting. I knew the people who planned the velodrome at the Brian Piccolo park in S. Fla and they included a loaner program. I haven't been around there in years so I don't know if they're still doing loaners.

When you look at "inexpensive" equipment ($500 bike/$75 shoes/$50 kit) when compared to "traditional" sports where, using football as an example, if the equipment is expensive it's provided for the athlete, cycling will always be expensive.

So, to the OPs point: Even "cheap" starter gear is still massively expensive in comparison to other sport's gear. I don't think requiring cheaper gear for beginners will help much, if at all.

Tinton

Whaaa? I did club and HS swimming for 12 years, and I've never approached the cost of bike racing. The most expensive fastskin I've ever had to buy was the cost of a good pair of bib shorts. Training suits lasted forever. If they started to disintegrate, you'd just make sure to keep your drag suit at a modest height. Goggles lasted forever. The crappier the condition of your training stuff, the cooler it was.
Entry fees for doing 4 or 5 swimming events were about the same as doing a single crit.
Coaching is the most expensive part of swimming, and it's easily eclipsed by the continued cost of maintaining a bike.

High schools have recently banned fastskins. Now the most expensive racing suit will be about $40. From what I've heard, the decision was partly influenced by the growing expense of racing suits. Like the lazer--A lot of HS teams and individuals couldn't afford a $500 suit.

This is coming from a guy who races a steel masi.

Obscene

After the finish of one of my recent Cat 5 races, the promoter kept going on about how Cat 5 isn't as "beginner friendly" as it used to be. I don't have the age or experience to compare it against anything else, but I can see where he's coming from with the entry level race featuring teams, strategy, and carbon tubulars.

Brian Ratliff

You know, talking about swimming and football equipment and such has me thinking.

It's just culture. Football is probably the most expensive sport there is, but it's part of the culture so much of the cost of fields and equipment are subsidized. Swimming, same way. If you had to build a pool to hold a swimmeet, you'd never do it. But public funds subsidize the pool because it's used for other purposes. I don't know how it is in Europe, but I suspect that talent is rewarded with some form of equipment subsidization a lot earlier than in the US, because bike racing is part of the culture.

In the US, you won't be doing anything if you only focus on lower the barriers of entry to juniors. The much higher barrier to entry lies in the parents, and that's not one that will be lowered by merely keeping equipment prices down. You have to lead the horse to water before he can make a decision to drink from it. Most parents simply don't see cycling as a youth oriented sport. I mean, for me, I was riding my road bike seriously for almost 10 years before I even knew that bike racing was a viable activity for me to be participating in. If I were a parent who didn't ride a bike, I wouldn't even know that bike racing existed here in the US, much less how to get my kid into it.

I would concentrate my efforts on lowering the equipment barrier to entry to mid-twenty year-olds (which is where my comments about loaner bikes were aimed). They'll be the ones who, if sucked into the sport of cycling, will pass it onto their children to fill out the junior ranks.

Racer Ex 

AMA used to do that with motors in dirt track. Then a guy claimed one of the factory Harley motors and the AMA dumped the rule.

I think they ought to let anyone on a steel bike weighing more than 25 pounds ride the C race at the TNC. I'd even leave the fenders on.

Honestly, when I was a 5 I just rode whatever I had at the time and didn't give it two thoughts. I think the problem with your buddies premise is that most people with a kid starting out or starting out themselves barely know a tubular from a tuba. And once they do know they probably know how little the bike matters in a Cat5 or Junior race.

It's the crashing thing that warns a lot of people off and if we stopped handing out one day licenses like free cigarettes and started requiring some skills training before hand, we'd have less crashes, and more people sticking around.

mattm

You can do a million things to get more bike racers started, but in the end it might just be that all their friends are playing soccer instead.

We just need to admit bike racing isn't as popular as we'd like it to be.

OP, I think your old/grumpy buddy just wants to sell his bikes in bulk based on this idea.

ridethecliche

It'd be more fun if they had to race flat crits on SS bikes. Get them to start off on crits for a year or so before they move up to race road races. Should learn more that way and lose less $$$ if they don't like it.