Disco Stu

On the assumption that a more mid foot position spreads the pedal load more evenly across the whole foot........

When we leg press or row a boat (or use a rowing machine), we have more strength when the whole foot is supported on a platform, so why is it so different on a bike? Why is it acceptable to only have the front third of the foot supported on a bike?


Is it because of the higher cadence?
Stiff soles only do so much.

I suspect we'd be much weaker doing a leg press if only the front third of the foot was supported

Diablito

I think its better for spinning and you get more leverage which works better for your hamstring while pulling upwards.

Wingsprint

I think it has more to do with limiting use of the calf muscles than distributing load. Also keep in mind that biomechanically pedaling is a very different motion than what your legs do when rowing.

chaadster

I've never thought about it before, and have no idea of the what, why, and when of it. I do have BMX/freeride platform pedals on one bike, though, and while they're definitely comfy when standing, I don't know if they're conferring any other benefit over a standard cage pedal.

Have you seen these https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...-fit-your-feet ?

K100Fran 

It works for some people. Steve Hogg has an interesting article that's worth a read.
https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com...leat-position/

RR3

I use a mid sole cleat position. What Friel and Hogg write is what I experience.

There is no assumption that forces are spread more evenly.

Why is the strength different from leg pressess? Cycling requires power and energy more than absolute strength.

On the downside, sprinting seems impaired, the shoes are not really available and toeclip overlap is unavoidable,

Carbonfiberboy 

I've always used the standard placement: pedal spindle under the big toe joint. Never had a problem with it, but my longest ride was only 18 hours. Calf flexion is desirable when pedaling IME, hence the standard placement. Imagine hiking uphill with some sort of narrow 3" high block attached to your instep. That's center cleat placement. Completely removes calf action from the pedal stroke. Some people need that, either because their feet aren't strong enough or they haven't learned to modulate their calf action when pedaling.

hueyhoolihan

i think, if rowing machines had bearing mounted foot supports it could be a valid comparison. but pedals, due to their construction, offer little, if any, opportunity to exert fore/aft leverage.

i suppose a full platform pedal, sans bearings, could be devised that may well give one an advantage, but you'd only get one pedal stroke using one leg to prove it's superiority.

Dan333SP

Quoted because awesome.

PiLigand

Full disclosure, there is NO SCIENCE BEHIND THIS ANSWER WHATSOEVER.

When doing leg presses or playing on a rowing machine, I feel a lot more equivalent to doing squats. When I'm biking, I feel like I'm using more of a "running" set of muscles for the most part. When we walk or run, we mostly support out weight on the front ball of our foot. Squats are a single-direction motion where running and cycling both include a 2-dimensional motion.

So maybe for that forward push, we need the ball of our feet, not the heel.

Also, these look ridiculous. I can't imagine them feeling good.

hueyhoolihan

i don't have a signature line (i think) but if ever i should decide to want one... well, i'll probably steal it.

StanSeven

I think you're on to something there. I'm a long time runner but got injured once and only had cycling. Pushing off on the balls of my feet hurt do I resorted to mid-foot position similar to what Friel and Hogg suggests. That was fine for just easy spinning but it lacked power for accelerations, climbing, and just a faster pace. I think most people need a position where the ball of the foot is used for power.

Leinster

Anything I've read on the subject has been pretty honest that, for all the benefits of midfoot positioning, they really only recommend it for TT and Tri, disciplines where long, steady power output is the primary aim and it's not ideal for frequent short-burst accelerations (ie, road racing, sprinting).

RR3

I'd agree with that. I mostly do long distance endurance events and the mid sole works well. In a Crit recently, I felt I was a half wheel disadvantaged coming out of sharp corners. Friel explains why there are efficiencies to be gained at lower power outputs when using a midsole cleat position and I am a believer. When I went midsole, I put out the same wattage but at 6 beats per second lower.

Disco Stu

I appreciate all the replies and links.

It just dawned on me that it (not having full foot platform on a bike) likely has a lot to do with not extending the knee quite near as much as we do when we use a leg press, which probably has a lot to do with the trunk being more flexed on the bike. Reduced knee extension may require more ankle extension and flexion..

Why is it easier to extend the knee far more during a very intense leg press than it is when cycling intensely?
Well, it is for me, not that I've done leg weights recently. Less hip flexion?

Does the "preference" for calf/ankle movement have something to do with cadence (contraction rate/minute)? I suppose cycling is more about speed/power instead of absolute force.

How about because the legs work one at a time?

Interesting comparison to running, and one I should have thought of. The thought of running without ankle movement is horrible, even though it's very different to cycling.


I still have little idea

Disco Stu

haha, thanks. I was looking for those when I started the thread

pdedes

I center the head of the 5th metatarsal on the pedal spindle

Campag4life

^^^ And for those that don't speak metatarsal, the 5th is behind the first so this position is closer to mid foot position.

One of the many reasons I ride Speedplay pedals is they offer a rearward extension plate that allows cleat location up to 15mm or so back of std position. I don't ride precisely with mid arch position which is way back...but rather about 15mm or so back of pedal in line with first metatarsal.

I find this position takes pressure off the heel and reduces hot spots as mentioned. I have been riding this way for about 5 years. A couple of years ago, I tried a more conventional position and no way for me. This more rearward position works great. I prefer it out of the saddle and all around. I am a spinner and not a masher as well and no problem keeping the RPM up.

HardyWeinberg

You're not pushing the pedal like you are a leg press machine or rowing machine, you are turning a crank. The pedal is just there to take up space around the spindle that you are attaching your foot to.

cydewaze

My feet are big, and with my Speedplays I always end up with the cleat as far back as it'll go.

Homebrew01

Cycling is more like walking up stairs. Try walking upstairs with your whole foot instead of the ball of your foot.

CliffordK

I've wondered about midfoot cleat placement, but haven't done it yet. Maybe this summer. I noticed some of Specialized Touring Shoes have more rearward cleat placement than other shoes.

There may be some benefit of using the toes to increase the dynamic range of one's pedal stroke. But I wonder if cycling is like a ballerina walking on her toes all day.

Disco Stu

That's another good point that I missed: it's a circle.
I did say it was a dumb question

Trakhak

Midfoot cleat position (aka paperboy style) = power applied through both the ball of the foot and the heel. However, your foot is constructed such that the heel is for shock absorption and the ball is for power transmission. The biomechanics involved in cycling, running, etc., can only be understood on the basis of those fundamental facts.

It may be possible that under certain conditions, use of the midfoot cleat wouldn't be obviously inefficient, but it's doubtful that much more than that can be said in its favor.

Leinster

The heel is constructed for stability when standing or walking. Heel-strike running is a recent human invention that came in with cushioned shoes, but forefoot or midfoot striking is much better for shock absorption.