lemurhouse

Question for experienced track riders: How much time can I cut off of my kilo time trial time if I go from a standard track/sprint set up to more aero components? There are lots of factors that come into play, I know, but am looking for a ballpark. Last year I rode a regular track setup, i.e. hands in the drops, spoked wheel, clinchers. Most of the other guys had TT bars, disk wheels, sew-ups, aero helmets. That stuff is faster, but how much faster is what I'm trying to figure out. 1 second in a kilo? More? Less?

Thanks.

edit: This is for an outdoor, 333m track. (T-town)

yonderboy

You've probably read the Bike Radar article? In there, they say a full TT setup will save you 9 seconds per km going 40km/h. There are a lot of other variables at play (ie: headwind), but the general idea is you'll need about 22-24% less power to go the same speed in an aero setup versus a non-aero setup.

Baby Puke

2-3 seconds faster. It won't get you 9 seconds!

Kilo is more about strength than say a 40k TT. On a 333 you'll spend most of the first lap out of the saddle accelerating, and here much of the aero stuff is irrelevant. If you can go fast on a sprint bike, you'll kill it when you finally put on the aero stuff, but it's still only gonna be around 2-3 seconds different.

yonderboy

Since everyone is going to nitpick this detail, this is why I qualified myself:

There are too many other variables at play (start, tire pressure, air density, temperature, food you ate, etc, etc) to determine an actual time savings for a given individual without actually going out and testing it. The Bike Radar article is good in that their methods were sound.

4zn_balla

i don't think the type of tire matters that much.

lemurhouse

Thanks very much for your responses. The Bike Radar article was just the thing I was looking for. I understand that there are other factors involved and that lab data doesn't translate exactly to real life. 9 seconds per km at 40kmph seems amazingly high to me. But even a few seconds is enough of a difference to see what happens by moving at least to aero bars. I just don't know if I can generate the same power in that position as I can in the drops. Been a long time since I trained with aero bars.

At my age, on the track my events are actually 500m and 2 kilo, not one kilo. Going more aero clearly a huge difference on the 2 kilo, considerably less on the 500m given the higher proportion of time spent out of the saddle and accelerating to top speed. Still, seems like it might be worth a second or two and that's a huge amount in this short distance.

Thanks everyone.

Baby Puke

I hope I'm not nitpicking Yonderboy, I just don't want the OP going in with unrealistic expectations. I asked this question around my track, they said one second for the bars, one second for the wheels. Simplistic, but my experience bears this out- I went three seconds faster. Of course, your milage may vary.

fly:yes/land:no

there are a lot of problems with the bike radar article that have been discussed ad nauseam in the road cycling/road racing forums. if your position on your track bike is as bad as o'neil's supposed drop position, you are doing it wrong:



that is pretty terrible looking, and i am guessing that he might have sat up a little to get the aero readings to be more significant. (notice in the outdoor test, the watts required were 307, and indoors, his position looked a lot better, and the watts required dropped to 278!) additionally, when he switches to aero bars on the road bike, notice how much taller the stack is compared to the tt bike. plus, there is the seat tube angle conundrum, with most track positions sitting a little more forward than traditional roadies (opens up the hip angle in the drop position).

of course, this is not to say that aero position is not important, merely that the bike radar article might have overstated the benefits. further mitigating the conclusion is the fact that the application of those numbers don't take into consideration power decreases due to position change. there will be an adaptation period for any rider making the switch, as well as a learning curve for taking the turns optimally.

bottom line: get the aero bars, and train on them. they will save you significant time.

CafeRacer

Too many people use the idea of aero equipment as a crutch for going faster. Maby in a pusuit this works but If your a kilo rider you probably spend a fair amount of time in your areo bars. In the same breath you dont need to go out and buy all sorts of fancy **** to shave a few seconds off your PB time.

Wheels: If this was your excuse to go out and buy a set of pie plate fancy wheels (Zipp, Easton, Cane Creek) then by all means go buy them but you dont need them. What I would do is get yourself a set of wheels built (or bought) that are stiff, have fast hubs, and tubular rims. Have some half decent high pressure tubulars put on them. There is no shortage of them online. Anytime your doing a speed specific workout use these wheels that way your used to how the faster wheel feels at speed and it may help your speed training. Having fast wheels can save you easily a second when your fairly beginner.

Areo bars: Guys who train as kilo riders spend half their time on areo bars when they're on the track bike. If your going to do 2 or 3 a year I wouldnt be so worried about it. The trick here tho is getting them set up right. Most people slap them on and assume its instant speed. If you compare side by side a sprinters Kilo bike to say a regular sprint bike the base bar is slightly forward and ever so slightly higher than a drop bar. The key here is your bar has to be in a placement that allows you the hardest and best start possible. I spent close to a months worth of standing start work with just a base bar on untill I got it in the right place. Once that position is acheived you want to set your areo bars up so that your back and head angles dont change when you switch hand positions, all that changes is the closure of your frontal area. The differance areo bars can make varies between riders. If set up properly and you know how to ride them you can save alot of time. In the same breath a year or two ago Jason Quelly who is an olympic champion rode a 1.02 on his drop bar.


As for the rest of it its a tottal commitment or its not worth it. Meaning if your going to wear booties you might aswel be in a tight fitting skin suit and have a propper areo hat on your mising out. AT the end the day areo kit can save your a couple tenths.

At this point your best bet for improvment is wheels, and to work on training your limiting factors in a kilo.

lemurhouse

Thanks for the info and advice everyone. I've got an old pair of aero bars from back in the day and I'll see how they work out. I've no intention of buying super fancy wheel(s) or helmet etc., but I was curious how much they would save... or what its costing me in time to not go with them.

Cheers.

BigMig

With the same output (watts) You can ride up to 2 or 3 km/h faster in an aeroposition. That means in Kilo appr. 2 seconds - and thats a world!!! Baby Puke says the truth....

TejanoTrackie 

I too am over 50 years old and do the 500m TT instead of the kilo. I race on my sprint bike and I do NOT use aero bars because the time I gain in aerodynamics is offset by the inferior power position and the time it takes to make the transition from the outer bars during the start to the inner aero extensions when I sit down. A 500m is much more of an all-out sprint than the kilo, and you can't afford to back off on the power for even a fraction of a second, which is exactly what happens when you transition on the bars and sit down. It's a totally different situation in the kilo, and I don't know anyone who does the kilo with standard drop bars. Some people use aero bars for the 500m and I'd say its about 50-50 between those who do and those who don't. What I do recommend is a good aero helmet, since it's good for about an extra 2 kph top speed. Wheels are important too. I use a disk in the back and a deep section front with bladed spokes. I use a disk more because it is stiff in transferring power than for its aerodynamics. As far as tires are concerned, I use tubulars simply because they can be inflated to higher pressures than clinchers and are more efficient at transfering power to the track during the start, although they must be glued on properly or else they will be worse. Another consideration is that clincher wheels are generally heavier than tubulars, which hurts you at the start. Once you are up to speed I don't think there is any difference between tubulars and clinchers.

Oh, and as far as the difference in times between a standard setup with regular wheels, helmet etc. and full racing regalia; when I do standing 500m TTs during practice sessions on my bike with its standard wheels (box rims, 32 round spokes, road tubulars) and standard helmet, I am typically 1 to 1.5 seconds slower than when I use my racing gear in competition. How much of that is the equipment difference and how much is adrenalin I don't know, since I don't train with a power meter.

mezza

Ummmm, if you are going 40km/h then you are going 40km/h. If you go 9 seconds faster at ANY distance you will be faster than 40km/h. By going the same speed you cannot gain 9 seconds. All the aero kit in the world will not make you any faster if you continue to ride at 40km/h - It's just mathematically silly.

BigMig

You are a funny guy, huh?

I think He means: With the same output of power You can save with aero-components 9 seconds per kilometre (at speeds over 40 km/h).

yonderboy

How big is that bucket of nits? Thanks for completely ignoring the power comparison. If you'd like, I can go find the original Road Cycling thread so you can argue with like-minded pedants.

melville

What's this 40km/h business, anyway? That's S L O W. 40km/h = Kilo time of 1:30. Slow. Where's the relevant data for 50 and 60km/h? You know, trackie speed.

crewdoglm

Not sure if you'll see this but, thanks for that response. I'm your age as well and your experience bears out my own logic on it. I have TT bars but it really seems like squaring the circle to get that base bar in the right spot and then there's the matter of transition - all in 500M. I agree emphatically.

Muddlfuc

Dont forget the mental advantage too.
the sound of a disc makes you think your going faster ;p

queerpunk

wow this thread is older than most of my bikes

taras0000

I don't have any bikes newer than the OP

carleton

I think I had just started racing when this thread was started. I was still active in the SSFG forum at this time or over on Fixed Gear Fever. I had no idea that BabyPuke was active over here back then, hahaha.

I guess it should be noted since this thread was bumped that a lot of the info here should be reevaluated.

A few missing points:

- Speed. The speed at which the rider is traveling affects how much gains they will get by getting aero equipment.
- Some things will always help (skinsuits over normal kits, aero booties, aero helmets, aero front wheel vs 32 spokes). That's the speed that you can buy.
- Bike fitting is key, but it's not as simple as pay a guy $200 to put me on a fit bike and I'm faster the next kilo I do like the equipment above will provide.
- Flexibility. If one isn't flexible enough to get down on the aero bars, then why bother? I've seen aero bars so high that the rider sits up like he's got his elbows propped up on a bar at a restaruant.
- Gear choices based on your strengths and weaknesses.
- Some people are faster in drop bars.
- Narrow drop bars are a thing now and rival some aero bar positions. I think this should be explored more at the higher levels of the sport.
- The Kilo is a max speed event. Max speed in aerobars may not be as good as max speed in drop bars.

CafeRacer noted that one might only do 2 or 3 competition kilos in a season and maybe that many in training, an added benefit to training for the Kilo is that it makes one strong in all sprint events: Kilo, Flying 200, Match Sprint, Team Sprint, and Keirin, because the strengths required for a good kilo (great standing start, great top speed, and speed endurance) some or all of which are used in those events. A kilo specialist can ride man1, man2, or man3 in team sprint on 250m or 333m tracks. They can drag race or go long in match sprints. They can sit in or "kilo" a Keirin off the front.

But, the training is hard.

taras0000

It's not only hard, but it's HARD. There is a reason it's called the "Killermeter". It's also extremely difficult to get right (as in dial in). It can take years to figure out what works for a rider. Often, 2-3 times longer than it can take for someone who is focusing on being a "pure" sprinter, and THEN you end up getting to train with that template that works.

The training regime for a kilo rider takes them very deep into nueral fatigue, and there is a very fine line when it comes to overloading vs overtraining the nervous system. When racing at a competitive level, recovering from true nervous system fatigue/overtraining can absolutely write off the remainder of one's competitive season.

I think in the past 5-8 years, the Elites have learned the defining parameters and how to stay away from that edge. The current crop of sprinters and Kilo riders can really thank the modern pioneers of Kelly, Hoy, Tournant, Rousseau, and Nimke; and the more current Bos and Pervis in really advancing the modern Kilo training program (whatever those dark arts and secrets may be).

Also, who else would love to see an all out assault on the Kilo WR the way the Hour was attacked this past year? 55.XXX?

rensho3

At a racing age of 68, I thought my days of training for a kilo were long over, as I only had to last for 500 meters, although training to do one of those well at a world level is hard enough. In case no one else has heard, or it just hasn't come up on this topic, there is a chance that UCI is going to do away with the 500 and make everyone do kilos. I know the young'ins don't care, but with only 6 months to go before Master's Worlds, a change like that will require a reorganization of us old'uns training programs. Also, although I used aerobars when I did the kilo, I switched to drop bars for the 500 because I found I lost more time on the transition from the standing start to the aerobars than I gained in being more aero. I wish UCI would decide so I can know if I have to start training on aerobars again. Any one heard anything more about this?

700wheel

According to the posted program for 2018 the 500m is still in for certain riders;
Home - Masters Worlds LA
I sure hope so because I know several riders training for this event.

DMC707

I just did the math and that's 6 minutes over the course of 40 kilos (25 miles basically )

I can buy that for that long of a ride for someone with aero everything and an optimized position ---- I'm a total fred and can knock off significant time just using clip ons on my road bike as the position is easier to sustain than riding in the drops for extended periods

Like others have stated though , --- that 9 seconds won't really translate to a standing start kilo though ---- and again -- (again acknowledging my FRED factor ) for me, I am slower in a kilo trying to transition to the aero bars than I would be by just hunkering down and staying in the drops. This would be from lack of mastery of the position and the bike wandering too much above the black as a result

There have been some noteworthy kilo times put down by some very fast people using just narrow sprint bars though too



****** Did not notice this was a 9 year old thread ------ I don't think they had a drop bar quite like the 35c Scattos or 33c Alpinas back then