SteelCharlie

So I got this Masi Team 3V a couple day ago (I know, pix soon) and it has a mid-90's Chorus 8spd group on it. And to put it bluntly, the thing shifts like sh***t. The rear at any rate. Front is tolerable. It seems to be devoid of any kinda precision going up the cogs. I can feel lotsa clicky things happening in the lever and nothing happens at the back until all at once and then who know how many cogs it will jump. One click does nothing. And never lands on any one clean running. The thumb button brings it down the cogs fine FWIW - even clean running.
Now I am not a brifter kinda guy, this being the first for me. My comparison base is Shimano downtube index stuff for the last 35yrs or more. The downtube 8spd DA on my Nuova Strada is flawless.
Are there secrets I need to know about these things? I find it hard to believe that Campy would have sold such apparent trash and figure I just need the inside scoop on something. Failing that, I have no aversion to switching it to downtube shifters. Is there anything index compatible with the Campy rear der? I suspect that Campy will be difficult to find?
any assistance would be most appreciated
Charlie

exmechanic89

If the shifters arent worn out or damaged they're obviously way out of adjustment, should shift fine once you correct that. I'd check to make sure the cables are moving freely in the housing. Bar shifters I've noticed are far more sensitive to any binding than DT shifters - which is what I use too, incidently.

Ghrumpy

Might just be gummy inside. IIRC those brifters are rebuildable. Parts even used to be relatively easy to get, probably not any more. But worth opening up and having a look.

nesteel 

Have you done any adjustments to them at all? Even 8 speed Campy should be pretty smooth, especially Chorus level. Provided the front shifter doesn't have a broken spring carrier.

SteelCharlie

It's raining so I've some time hahaha. I did check the cables but I can do that again. I'll see about ripping it apart. Looks to be a PITA.

The front seems OK tho the der itself was not in a happy place. I presume from the clicky stuff in the left lever that it is also a 3spd thing.

any thots on compatible downtube shifters?

thanks
Charlie

Hypno Toad

This ^^^

I've got mid-90's Campy group on my Mondonico. It's not as crisp as brand new, but nobody should expect that with decades old tech and parts.

IMG_20160410_153657007.jpg

Aubergine 

The old brifters do wear out. Some parts are replaceable, some are not. I had to replace an original Ergopower rear brifter with a newer model, but the front is still working well.

Ghrumpy

Compared to finding suitable replacement indexing downtube shift levers, installing them, and then replacing your brake levers too? PsITA are relative.

Campagnolo front shifters of that era had 11 clicks IIRC. Not indexed like the rear. Works on doubles or triples.

Ex Pres 

As a thought - your rear derailleur may not be compatible. I tried to use one of the older 7/8s Chorus models - with the A/B selection - w/Ergo, and I can tell you that one doesn't work right. It'll shift, but it's just not right.

Andy_K 

This sounds to me like the shifter probably needs to be rebuilt, particularly since you say it is working in the downshift direction. I'd do some work to rule out all other possibilities before I tore the lever apart to rebuild it, but I suspect that's what it's going to come down to.

When you say you "feel lotsa clicky things happening" how crisp would you say it is? Is it a clear and distinct click, like a snap, or kind of a mushy feeling like it probably went over a notch? If it's crisp, there's a better chance that new cables or maybe even just adjusting the cable tension will fix the problem. If it's mushy, I might not even bother with new cables.

Anyone's first experience with old Campy shifters is kind of a crap shoot, because they do degrade with use. If you don't know what they're supposed to feel like it can be really hard to tell if they're worn out (which is fixable) or if you just don't have them set up right. If you don't have experience with any other kind of brifter it's hard to describe. When Campy shifters are working well the "clicks" are very distinct, much more so than a Shimano STI shifter, but they don't have quite the heavy "clack" of Shimano downtube shifters. I'd compare it to snapping your fingers. Also, the finger lever should feel about the same as the thumb lever.

Rebuilding one of these shifters is not a task that you should undertake lightly. It's not quite at the level of watch repair, but it definitely requires a good bit of patience and dexterity. There's a shop in Seattle (Branford Bike) that will do it for you for a reasonable price. Depending on where you live you might be able to find a local shop that will do it.

old_dreams

Have you checked the rear dropout width & alignment & the derailleur hanger alignment.

dunrobin

I've got some 8 speed campy brifters..their clunky but reliable. Before rebuilding I'd replace the cables. I'd also spray down the rear derailleur with wd40 and then lube it.
I'd also run through the brifter while disconnected, maybe spray some lube in. Rebuilding is a pain but possible.

Kontact 

A shifter rebuild will likely reveal one part that commonly cracked with use, and also index springs that wore out. Many shops still have a great number of rebuild parts for the shifters.

gearbasher

If the cable starts to fray in the shifter, right at the head of the cable, it will shift erratically. I've had that happen a couple of times. Replacing the cable brought it back to perfection. So, I suggest checking the cable before trying anything else.

If you have worn/broken G-springs or a broken spring carrier the "clicks" are usually very faint or non-existent.

repechage

Mid 90's should be a slant parallelogram design... all the above notes are good.
I WISH the local shops had ANY old Campagnolo spare parts. SoCal is so hip and trendy...

dddd

All of the above, so as stated the cable needs to be in good order from one end all the way out to the other.


Sometimes it's just the end of the housing having got pulled out of the lever body, or the rear-most housing loop having become contaminated and sticky inside, but a cable re-do will resolve that.


I always start by tugging on the exposed runs of cable to verify if and where there is friction along the cable's path.

Pars 

Another place to check with if it turns out you do need parts is Vecchios in Boulder, CO. They probably do rebuilds as well.

Road Fan

My wife's first Terry was equipped with 8-speed 3x8, with all Mirage parts of all things. It really works reliably and smoothly! Something is wrong with that Chorus installation. It's not the basic fact that it's Campy.

Dfrost 

I’ve been using Sachs Ergo 8-speed brifters for over 20 years and love them. They are very clean shifting and have been quite reliable for me. I’ve probably rebuilt 4 or 5 of them in that time and over 40,000 miles. Yes, the clicks in the front (left side) brifters allow double or triple FD’s, with very simple trimming.

Campy “g-springs” are the most common wear part. They are readily available inexpensively. I’ve never had a cracked spring carrier (knock on wood!), but have spares if I need them.

I’ve used and like the Ergo instructions in Leonard Zinn’s manuals, which are much better than the actual Campy manuals. As @ Andy_K says, it’s not trivial, but quite doable if you follow the instructions explicitly and don’t rush. Note in particular if you have a left-hand threaded pivot bolt!

crank_addict

I've noticed the same as the OP on my retro Viner. The last fix was replacing the cables and it was very transparent in the shift quality.

RiddleOfSteel

Check cables and cable housings first. That's the easiest and cheapest thing to do. Gummy or high friction cable scenarios will easily cause poor shifting. Derailleur high/low stops and chain condition are next.

If, when you press the big (downshift) lever inward and get a million return spring clicks as you let the lever go, that means, in my experience, G-springs and the G-spring carrier are tired and need replacing. A freshly rebuilt back half of that shifter (houses G-springs and their carrier) will yield proper shifting again. It's not crummy, it just needs to be rebuilt, and thankfully it can.

A note on rebuilding 8-speed Ergos. On the right shifter, IIRC, they do not make a G-spring carrier specifically for it any more. You can, however, take one for a 9/10-speed right Ergo lever, cut the post off, as well as file the bump on the outer part of the carrier, creating a perfectly round and smooth carrier. That will be the stock shape for the 8-speed. The carrier is aluminum, so a metal hack saw and rasp will make short work of the carrier. You can use a fine file to do finish work. Works a treat.

I understand the Shimano down tube shifting bias/experience. I have 7, 8, 9, and 10-speed Dura-Ace DT shifters (8-10 speed on bikes, currently) and they are flawless and have been since the dawn of time. It's a freaking miracle how reliable and fuss-free they are, and I love them.

Also note on the Campy shifters. The 8-speed pointy top Ergos have the shifting assembly secured by a round backing plate and screw. That screw is LEFT-threaded, not (normal) right!!!

Spaghetti Legs 

I will take that group off your hands if you want to go back to Shimano�� On a couple of occasions I had bad shifting with my Campy Ergos and I was convinced the shifter needed a rebuild. When I went to remove the shifter I found the cable nearly worn through inside the shifter. Great advice in above posts, so don’t give up on it yet.

SteelCharlie

OK - lotsa good info. Yesterday I putzed around with them for a couple hours. Pulled the cables and housing. Seems to be free running and there are no cable frays. Rear der moves freely and the stops are set just fine. It also seems to be the proper one for the ergo thing when the lever works. Hit the inside of the housings with some silicone spray. Hosed out the lever assembly with the same spray - way good shot thru the secret lube hole in the top of the housing. Lotsa black gunk ran out so I did that some more and more black gunk ran out. The lever seemed to work w/out the cable attached so I put it back together. So now it seems to work better. Not a heart winning performance but I'd give it an up to ride-able status. BTW the front works fine.

Weather is still screwed so I'll get some new housing and a cable today and see if that makes any difference. I mean if it can meet some minimal level of performance I'm not dedicated to replacing it. And I'm not even gonna bother to rebuild it. It works or it goes. Clearly the proper solution is to dump them now and save the future bother, eh?

As to replacing it obviously only the shifters/der's would need to go. Actually the front der - a Record - could stay maybe. The rest of the group seems functionally fine. The brakes were needing some attention and the pads on the back were on the wrong sides with the open end facing forward. Pretty clever. And the secret centering screw was apparently not known to the last person to play with the brakes - or the built-in toe-in feature of the pads as well.

I notice that Chorus DT shifters are available on ebay at a price. But then I don't know if they are compatible with that der as well. I'm gonna measure the arm lengths on it and the DA 8spder and see if they are enough the same that Shimano shifters might work. I have to dig thru the stash to see if I have any 8spd levers tho I do know I have a couple new sets of 7's.

At any rate the adventure continues and I do certainly appreciate the suggestions above.Many thanks indeed.
Charlie
PS - still interested to know if anyone has any compatibility suggestions

easyupbug 

Those brake shifters are worth the trouble to check them out and make them right, but if you want to swap for a set of Shimano 8 speed DA DT shifters let me know.

Ex Pres 

You haven't posted a pic of your rear derailleur, have you? The ones that are compatible with Synchro DT shifters are not compatible with Ergo. (See my post above)