SteelCharlie

JIC anyone might be interested

So as suggested by the folks here I replaced both cables and the housings, including the bit on the rear der. While I was about that I yanked the rear der and soaked it overnite and then hosed it out with disc brake cleaner. The thot was that maybe some crud was impeding the action. Just to cover all the possibilities I replaced the chain as well. Gave the right lever another silicone duche and the runoff was pretty clean looking finally.
Stuck it all back together and ran it in the stand to give the new pieces a chance to get used to the new home. All seemed to be function pretty OK and it did seem improved over what it was. So I took it out for a run around the block a couple times, too cold for much else. Shifted mostly OK. Doesn't seem to be much feel in the blade lever for shifting to bigger cogs - well not like DA. I suspect that a learning process is in order but I'd hoped for more than what pretty much feels like bar mounted friction shifters on shifts to larger cogs. The front der is just fine. Lotsnlotsa clicks that mean nothing but still positive motion that makes the shift.

So, all in all ride worthy when the weather gets to a knee friendly point temp-wise. And the OldLady sez that I should leave the Campy on it cos it "looks cool".

Just as a note about compatibility. While it was apart I tossed a Shimano downtube lever on the rear der since the cog spacing is identical to Shimano. The Shimano lever doesn't pull enough cable to make positive shifts on the clicks but once shifted it runs silent. The parallelograms are as much the same as the Shimano as the difference between the DA and 600 ders I measured. The cable fixing bolt on the Campy was cleverly position just that bit further out on the arm to require just that bit more cable than the Shimano pulls. Great way to insure brand loyalty when nothing else works hahaha.

I am no longer pressed to acquire the replacement DA parts as the thing is certainly usable now. But if any of you have some 8spd DA group kinda parts (7202/3) you wanna flip .................. let me know
y'all take care.
Charlie

Ex Pres 

8s DA parts are actually 7402/3, but I'm sure it was just a slip. And I do have some, definitely rider, not show including some really ugly - but work great - STI shifters.

Andy_K 

Now that definitely sounds like a symptom that would be fixed by a rebuild.

RiddleOfSteel

+1 on the rebuild suggestion, just because, well, that's what it ultimately needs to shift properly. Any component that needs repair or lubrication to work as it once did, because it is old and used, will never give you or anyone an accurate idea of how it is supposed to work. It's good that you made headway with the Campy stuff (have any pictures of it??), but it's always going to be inferior to you or anyone else unless it's rebuilt. And yes, finding someone to do it is a hassle depending on where you live. Doing it yourself is dependent upon your confidence in your ability. I understand the lack of appeal in either of those two options, truly.

Shimano 8-speed cassette spacing is 4.8mm center of cog to center of cog. Campagnolo 8-speed is 5.0mm CTC (7-speed for both were also 5.0mm CTC). It's a gamble running a Shimano cassette with Campy shift components, but it's more than possible to work successfully. I've run Campy cassettes (9s and 10s) with Shimano shifting components just fine. I don't remember trying it the other way around.

Shimano RD cable pull ratio is 1.7:1 (6-speed through 10-speed RDs had this feature, excluding all 7400 Dura-Ace, which was much different), Campagnolo 8s through early 9s is 1.4:1 IIRC, with later 9s through current 11s being 1.5:1 (I could have those 1.4 and 1.5 numbers mixed up).

The 12 or so detentes or clicks for the left Ergo shifter allows one to run a double or triple crankset without needing double- or triple-specific shifters like Shimano has/does. It's pretty convenient. And just like old school down tube shifters, those many clicks allow fine trimming of the FD as you progress up or down the cassette (pretty much all FD-equipped bikes require FD trimming). That is also really nice, as Shimano did a similar multi-detente setup for their 8-speed and 9-speed STI shfiters (brifters), going to only three clicks for 7800 10-speed DA, and then one lonely click-to-trim for 7900+.

dddd

The Ergolevers are completely different mechanically from STI levers, and the approach that the OP took sounds like a shortcut that I wouldn't recommend at all. The ball bearings, bushings and springs are supposed to operate in a clean, greased state, not after having grit and solvent forced into these mechanisms.
Rear derailers also have greased internals with critical surfaces very well shielded from the elements. Dunking or spraying into a derailer's main pivots just contaminates the innards and leaves little in the way of lubrication.
I doubt that the shifter has been damaged, it can still be serviced, and the rear derailer may still work normally for some time.
These are good parts that deserve respect imo. These lever's rebuildability and low cost of service parts and hoods makes it likely worthwhile to service them properly.

SteelCharlie

!DUH! Antique brain in action hahaha shoot me a PM about whatcha got in the 7402/3 basket

OK - on the rest of the comments....

I appreciate the suggestions but here's the scam. I have every confidence that I could rebuild the shifters but I'm just not gonna do that. The parts are too expensive and for no more reason than I don't like the way they look I'm not gonna pop the $. Brifters in general are too ugly. STI's are not in my future as I looked at a breakdown and having something with that many pieces in it (and crtical to function) on a bicycle that is the essence of elegant in its simplicity machine is not gonna happen. On the cleaning, since they work better after being hosed out I suspect that nothing was forced into the mechanism. Not a surprising development since some quantity of black gunk washed out as I noted. And silicone is a decent non-dirt-attracting sorta lube FWTW And the reason for the front der click plethora was pretty obvious. My comment was to say that the big jump all at once up and down was working fine. And just to be upfront the brifters are not as bad as it may sound. I'm just accustomed to something a bit more ............ well............. better.
Most quality derailleurs have phosphor bronze type bushes on the pivots. The oldest Campy Records do and I've run them dry for YEARS and have never worn one loose. Filling those things w/ grease in an unsealed environment just makes grinding paste. I very much doubt that the Chorus der will significantly wear in my lifetime but if it does and I'm still mobile enough to care I'll just toss it and get a replacement. At this time it is very free in its range of motion and I suspect functioning at the level it was designed for. Problem free.

On the compatibility - The different pull ratios were pretty obvious just by simple inspection. The results were substantially less than surprising. On the cog spacing, 0.2mm is close to the 0.010" that I halfassed measured and is very likely less than the manufacturing tolerance for that level of part. And considering the slop in the whole network of der/jockey wheel/chain/cable (that sounds OK ) adjustment the tolerance fades to less than insignificant. I get very close to that just measuring a number of Shimano freewheels and clusters. Not surprising again that they can be substituted.

And I know that all sounds like a wise ass and I assure that is not the intended tone. It's been my experience that in many hobbies I've had there are general practices that don't really have much practical basis and can largely be ignored or discounted (bicycle people got nothing on the gun people for strange beliefs). At any rate I do appreciate your concerns even tho I may not share them. Re-habing older bikes is always problematic in trying to overcome the hardships imposed on lovely machines by the unknowing and/or uncaring.

busdriver1959

If I remember correctly from the first post about these brifters, they are first generation or very early generation. If so, the detents were very light by design. Rebuilding them won’t change that. In later models, Campy built in more recognizable detents based on feedback from users of the earlier models. I have brifters from a number of different generations. I tend to overshift when going to larger cogs on the early brifters but after a few shifts, I adjust.

RiddleOfSteel

Well well well, a Masi Team 3V! Very very nice!

Thank you for the explanation and added context. Are you going to run some Campy friction levers or try Syncro II indexed or something? I totally understand the desire to have and appreciation of simple yet elegant and bulletproof. It's why I am a huge fan and run indexed Shimano shifters from 7-10 speeds on the down tube (Dura-Ace almost exclusively). They never need anything, shift perfectly all the time, are rugged, and look good on the bike.

SteelCharlie

That would be very like what is happening. Since there is no inconsistency across the cogs I suspect that wear may not be an issue as you suggest. Thanks for the info.

Yes - DA is the goodies of choice on three of the ones here. From mid-80's New Dura Ace SIS to the recent 8spd on the Nuova Strada. And thoussssssands of miles on the 7400 that I put on new in '85 IIRC.

The Team3V is a cool bike. I have been waiting a loooong time for one my size to appear. I'll put up some more pix in a new thread.

thanks again for all the info/suggestions - - - I do appreciate it
Charlie

dddd

Thanks for the update, and I fully endorse friction levers used with the right sort of cogs, my own preference for spirited riding actually.


I do really like the look of early Ergo levers on those period Italian bikes though!!!!!!


I'll add that I don't like to hear people judge bikes or components that are not properly maintained, whether it's using an old saddle with turned-to-dust foam padding under the cover, old cabling not allowing the components to work to their intended level or shifters with proper lubricant flushed out of critical mechanisms (which is by design less of a problem on a Shimano STI shifter).

SteelCharlie

As mentioned before, I'm quite sure that none of the components are suffering for lack of lubrication.

I have no problem with friction shifters on the old Colnago, early 80's Campagnolo that it is. It works just fine and it functions just as it is expected to. The Shimano SIS was, to me at any rate, a step up.

Chrome Molly

One thing to keep in mind (and it might have been mentioned in the replies to this point) is that people actually liked the “soft” feel of early campy brifters vs STIs of the time. This makes sense since many were used to having to gently guide DTs through the right number of clicks and most of those riders also were remembering the friction era where finesse was the deal for clean shifting.

In my experience any situation with slight under shifting across a cog will be less satisfying than slight over shifting, but either is less than ideal as you are experiencing. Lesson learned perhaps but to consider them inferior given your scenario is a bit of a leap.

I also think an expense to rebuild early Campy brifters is not a scam given the parts are unique and the competition had the solution of selling complete replacements. My early Campy brifters usually started to skip down cogs due to wear after about 9k-10k miles depending on how hilly the average terrain was.

The above said no issues with you preference for sti since most people agree with you based on sales figures.

SteelCharlie

I would guess that I've ridden tens of thousands of miles with Campagnolo downtube friction shifters. And I still ride them on the old Colnago. They present no issues.
The brifter things (a decade after SIS?) have no excuses for less than SIS-similar performance. Brifter Shimano to brifter Chorus comparison I can't say but compared to any SIS downtube shifter I have the Chorus brifter is decidedly inferior w/out leaping IMO.
I never said the Campy rebuild was a scam. I just said that I wasn't gonna pop the $ for it. Expensive and often required rebuild parts may generate an elitist user group I suppose but that doesn't win my heart. YMMV.
And as I mentioned the Shimano brifters have no place on any machine of mine no matter how many people buy them - - ugly and complicated. Not to be confused with DA SIS.
And isn't interesting that Shimano STILL makes downtube shifters in 2018 even for the ten speed? MYmymy. Strange old world, ain't it?

All in all that is not to say that I'm not riding the Chorus, tho I suspect that it will not be a long term relationship

y'all take care
Charlie