Performance 28 mm tires
06-11-13, 11:57 PM
#1
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Performance 28 mm tires
I have 230 gram 25 mm Continental GP4000S tires on our tandem. But, I am seeing where 90% of pro riders in the Giro use 25 mm tires. I figure if a 140 lb. pro rider is most efficient on a 25 mm tire, this 290 lb. tandem team could stand to use a wider tire.
But the GP4000S doesn't come in 28 mm. I guess the obvious move is to the 260 gram Conti GP4 Seasons.
I looked at Michelin, but I don't see anything. The least bad 28 mm appears to be the cheapie 340 gram Dynamic Sport. What happened to the Krylion? That was a nice tire, and would have been a natural for the 28 mm.
There is the 235 gram Ultremo ZX with V-Guard, which appears to be Schwalbe's equivalent to the GP4000S, only it comes in 28 mm. Interesting that it in 28 mm it is only 5 grams heavier than the 25 mm GP4000S. I wonder how good that V-Guard flat protection is?
Another candidate is the Specialized Roubaix Pro, which is 700 x 25/28; psi 115-125; approx. weight 300g. What is 25/28? 26.5 mm?
Are there any other performance 28 mm tires we should consider?
But the GP4000S doesn't come in 28 mm. I guess the obvious move is to the 260 gram Conti GP4 Seasons.
I looked at Michelin, but I don't see anything. The least bad 28 mm appears to be the cheapie 340 gram Dynamic Sport. What happened to the Krylion? That was a nice tire, and would have been a natural for the 28 mm.
There is the 235 gram Ultremo ZX with V-Guard, which appears to be Schwalbe's equivalent to the GP4000S, only it comes in 28 mm. Interesting that it in 28 mm it is only 5 grams heavier than the 25 mm GP4000S. I wonder how good that V-Guard flat protection is?
Another candidate is the Specialized Roubaix Pro, which is 700 x 25/28; psi 115-125; approx. weight 300g. What is 25/28? 26.5 mm?
Are there any other performance 28 mm tires we should consider?
06-12-13, 04:29 AM
#2
Likes to Ride Far
25/28 mm on Specialized tires means that it has a tread that is the width of a 25mm tire (and so should be as efficient as that) but has a volume like that of a 28mm tire (so should be as comfortable as that); they're trying to say that you can have the best of both worlds in one tire, but I'm not so sure that it achieves what they say.
The Michelin Krylion got absorbed into their Pro 4 Race line when they decided to make several different versions of it. So the new Krylion is called the Pro 4 Race Endurance, but unfortunately they only make 23 and 25 mm versions. I certainly wouldn't put the cheap Dynamic Sport model on a tandem.
I would definitely choose the Continental GP 4-season over the Ultremo for robustness.
The Michelin Krylion got absorbed into their Pro 4 Race line when they decided to make several different versions of it. So the new Krylion is called the Pro 4 Race Endurance, but unfortunately they only make 23 and 25 mm versions. I certainly wouldn't put the cheap Dynamic Sport model on a tandem.
I would definitely choose the Continental GP 4-season over the Ultremo for robustness.
06-12-13, 05:15 AM
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I like your thinking! To carry that thought just a little 2mm further the fastest rolling (and most comfortable) wider 700C tire I have found is the 30mm Grand Boise Cerf. Very supple thin casing and tread so make your own judgement as to suitability at your desired pressure. I measured it to be 3 mm tread thick with calipers which is the same as I measured a Pro Race 3.
Volume of 25mm tire is 12.5 *12.5*3.14 = 490.6 volume. To scale up to tandem 30mm tire 15*15*3.14 = 706.5 volume
I actually gave up using it on our tandem because we need a more robust tire but I use it on my single. On good roads this it is a tandem option. Looks may be a problem since it has old school natural color side walls. Note The web site calls it a 32mm tire because that is what they measured it as on wide rims. The tire is labeled 30mm. Pinch flats will be a thing of the past.
https://www.compasscycle.com/tires_gb_700_32.html
Volume of 25mm tire is 12.5 *12.5*3.14 = 490.6 volume. To scale up to tandem 30mm tire 15*15*3.14 = 706.5 volume
I actually gave up using it on our tandem because we need a more robust tire but I use it on my single. On good roads this it is a tandem option. Looks may be a problem since it has old school natural color side walls. Note The web site calls it a 32mm tire because that is what they measured it as on wide rims. The tire is labeled 30mm. Pinch flats will be a thing of the past.
https://www.compasscycle.com/tires_gb_700_32.html
06-12-13, 06:10 AM
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I'm not sure you can extrapolate from single racers to tandems.
Part of the reason they're going to 25mm tubulars is that they have a good aerodynamic profile with wider rims, such as Zipp firecrests.
28mm tire on a convential (i.e. narrower rim) is going to have a significant aerodynamic disadvantage that you're not going to make back in reduced rolling resistance.
Hence if the goal is performance, you're ok with the ride quality, and you're not pinch flatting, I'd stay with 25mm.
Part of the reason they're going to 25mm tubulars is that they have a good aerodynamic profile with wider rims, such as Zipp firecrests.
28mm tire on a convential (i.e. narrower rim) is going to have a significant aerodynamic disadvantage that you're not going to make back in reduced rolling resistance.
Hence if the goal is performance, you're ok with the ride quality, and you're not pinch flatting, I'd stay with 25mm.
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06-12-13, 06:43 AM
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One's that will be compatible with any dimensional limits of your fork, rear stays and brakes...???
Not all "performance" forks, frames and brakes produced over the last 10-15 years will accommodate larger volume tires. Make sure you will be able to maintain adequate clearance for normal deflection and debris that can attach itself to tire tread (e.g., fresh asphalt, hot tar or other things that collect small stones) and need to be able to pass between the tire and fork bridge and any caliper arms.
Not all "performance" forks, frames and brakes produced over the last 10-15 years will accommodate larger volume tires. Make sure you will be able to maintain adequate clearance for normal deflection and debris that can attach itself to tire tread (e.g., fresh asphalt, hot tar or other things that collect small stones) and need to be able to pass between the tire and fork bridge and any caliper arms.
06-12-13, 06:53 AM
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I like your thinking! To carry that thought just a little 2mm further the fastest rolling (and most comfortable) wider 700C tire I have found is the 30mm Grand Boise Cerf. Very supple thin casing and tread so make your own judgement as to suitability at your desired pressure. I measured it to be 3 mm tread thick with calipers which is the same as I measured a Pro Race 3.
Volume of 25mm tire is 12.5 *12.5*3.14 = 490.6 volume. To scale up to tandem 30mm tire 15*15*3.14 = 706.5 volume
I actually gave up using it on our tandem because we need a more robust tire but I use it on my single. On good roads this it is a tandem option. Looks may be a problem since it has old school natural color side walls. Note The web site calls it a 32mm tire because that is what they measured it as on wide rims. The tire is labeled 30mm. Pinch flats will be a thing of the past.
https://www.compasscycle.com/tires_gb_700_32.html
Volume of 25mm tire is 12.5 *12.5*3.14 = 490.6 volume. To scale up to tandem 30mm tire 15*15*3.14 = 706.5 volume
I actually gave up using it on our tandem because we need a more robust tire but I use it on my single. On good roads this it is a tandem option. Looks may be a problem since it has old school natural color side walls. Note The web site calls it a 32mm tire because that is what they measured it as on wide rims. The tire is labeled 30mm. Pinch flats will be a thing of the past.
https://www.compasscycle.com/tires_gb_700_32.html
06-12-13, 07:20 AM
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I have 230 gram 25 mm Continental GP4000S tires on our tandem. But, I am seeing where 90% of pro riders in the Giro use 25 mm tires. I figure if a 140 lb. pro rider is most efficient on a 25 mm tire...
Why would a wider tire be more efficient? More weight and certainly more wind resistant. What's the Giro? I could understand maybe going to a wider tire is the roads are broken/crappy and you want more rubber on the road. Am I missing something?
06-12-13, 07:28 AM
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I would consider the Grand Bois Cerf. Since you're a weight weenie, you'll be happy to know that each tire weighs only 248 grams. That is the tire that I'm most likely going to use for my 1977 JT tandem which I'm nearly finished with.
Last edited by photogravity; 06-12-13 at 10:52 AM. Reason: grammar
06-12-13, 07:47 AM
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As to aerodynamics, you're correct that generally wider = higher wind resistence. However, there is also the issue of how the tire interfaces with the rim. With the new generation of very wide deepsectioned rims, like Zipp Firecrests, racers are finding that there is little or no aerodynamic penalty to run a 25mm tire on the wider rims.
My point above, though is that you can't just extrapolate out, based on team weight alone, because the aerodynamics of a 28mm tire on a typical tandem rim, are going to be different than a 25mm tubular on a Zipp firecrest rim.
Zipp firecrest rims have a maximum width of 27mm. Thus, you can see that a 25mm tire might not add drag, compared to a 23mm tire.
By contrast, a Rolf tandem rim is narrower than 23mm, so going to 28mm is likely to add drag.
All that said, you can't make a definite conclusion on any wheel/tire combo, without a wind tunnel test, because what's intuitive, is not always true in aerodynamics.
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You could fall off a cliff and die.
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You could hit a tree and die.
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Last edited by merlinextraligh; 06-12-13 at 07:51 AM.
06-12-13, 08:53 AM
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I'm not sure you can extrapolate from single racers to tandems.
Part of the reason they're going to 25mm tubulars is that they have a good aerodynamic profile with wider rims, such as Zipp firecrests.
28mm tire on a convential (i.e. narrower rim) is going to have a significant aerodynamic disadvantage that you're not going to make back in reduced rolling resistance.
Hence if the goal is performance, you're ok with the ride quality, and you're not pinch flatting, I'd stay with 25mm.
Part of the reason they're going to 25mm tubulars is that they have a good aerodynamic profile with wider rims, such as Zipp firecrests.
28mm tire on a convential (i.e. narrower rim) is going to have a significant aerodynamic disadvantage that you're not going to make back in reduced rolling resistance.
Hence if the goal is performance, you're ok with the ride quality, and you're not pinch flatting, I'd stay with 25mm.
I do believe that Firecrest was optimized for 21-23mm tires.
Quote from Zipp FAQ:
Tire choice depends highly on user preference and conditions. To summarize, a 21mm has superior aerodynamics with our rims; a 23mm is larger and subsequently has better ride quality and rim protection, but at a slight aero penalty. Here are some questions you can ask that will help guide your decision:
Triathlon/Time trial? In general – 21mm.
Road racing? In general – 23mm.
Training and/or daily riding? 23mm+
Dry? 21mm at normal recommended pressure.
Wet? 23mm at a slightly lower pressure.
Smooth roads? 21mm at normal recommended pressure.
Rough roads? 23mm at a slightly lower pressure.
User prefers slight aero benefit of 21's at the expense of a little ride comfort, rim protection, and rolling resistance? Use 21mm.
User prefers slightly better ride comfort, rim protection, and rolling resistance of 23's at the expense of a little aero? Use 23mm.
Rider weighs less? 21mm.
Rider weighs more? 23mm.
https://velonews.competitor.com/2012/...-faster_209888
Last edited by waynesulak; 06-12-13 at 08:57 AM.
06-12-13, 09:13 AM
#12
Clipless in Coeur d'Alene
Merlin nailed the discussion concerning the Pro trend of matching rim & tire widths for aerodynamics.
Also, as discussed in the "19mm rim" thread, using tires that are much wider than the outer rim width will increase the amount of tire "flop" while cornering. So, if you are looking for performance (ie: high speed) cornering, going with a wider tire on a narrow rim is not the best setup.
IMO, you would be better off first looking at the rim widths and profiles the pros are using (med-tall & wide ie: >= 21mm), then match an appropriate tire.
Also, as discussed in the "19mm rim" thread, using tires that are much wider than the outer rim width will increase the amount of tire "flop" while cornering. So, if you are looking for performance (ie: high speed) cornering, going with a wider tire on a narrow rim is not the best setup.
IMO, you would be better off first looking at the rim widths and profiles the pros are using (med-tall & wide ie: >= 21mm), then match an appropriate tire.
Last edited by twocicle; 06-12-13 at 04:34 PM.
06-12-13, 09:34 AM
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Some interesting data from Zipp engineer posted to weightweenies:
Full thread at:
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=97169&start=30
The 404 and 808 (either clincher or tubular) are fastest (aerodynamically speaking) with 21mm tires, though design centered on 23mm tires. The 303 (either version) is still fastest with the narrow tires but design focused on minimizing aero penalties with tires up to 27/28mm wide. Again, like most things in aerodynamics, this isn't a hard and fast rule as it's still tire model-dependent. One company's 23mm tire performs significantly better on each of these wheels than their 22mm tire, for example.
Lastly, I threw together a quick plot of 23mm and 23mm data for 303 and 404 carbon clinchers. Sorry it's not super polished but again it's from our internal database.
Lastly, I threw together a quick plot of 23mm and 23mm data for 303 and 404 carbon clinchers. Sorry it's not super polished but again it's from our internal database.
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=97169&start=30
06-12-13, 10:33 AM
#14
Half Fast
We tried some 25 mm Continental GP4000S tires and thought they were very harsh. Then we tried some 28mm Continental Gatorskins and thought they were better. Then we tried some 28mm Schwalbe Ultremo ZX tires. I'm not exaggerating when I write that within 50 feet we both said "Wow... these are nice!"
The Schwalbes are so smooth that they transformed the ride quality of our Cannondale RT1000. It feels like they roll fast, too.
A couple of other tandem teams we know use them and really like them.
We ride on mostly smooth, clean roads, but sometimes I don't notice the occasional broken glass or small pothole. So far (knocking furiously on wood) we have not had a flat in about 200 miles.
The Schwalbes are so smooth that they transformed the ride quality of our Cannondale RT1000. It feels like they roll fast, too.
A couple of other tandem teams we know use them and really like them.
We ride on mostly smooth, clean roads, but sometimes I don't notice the occasional broken glass or small pothole. So far (knocking furiously on wood) we have not had a flat in about 200 miles.
Last edited by mwandaw; 06-12-13 at 11:32 AM.
06-12-13, 12:32 PM
#15
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We tried some 25 mm Continental GP4000S tires and thought they were very harsh. Then we tried some 28mm Continental Gatorskins and thought they were better. Then we tried some 28mm Schwalbe Ultremo ZX tires. I'm not exaggerating when I write that within 50 feet we both said "Wow... these are nice!"
The Schwalbes are so smooth that they transformed the ride quality of our Cannondale RT1000. It feels like they roll fast, too.
A couple of other tandem teams we know use them and really like them.
We ride on mostly smooth, clean roads, but sometimes I don't notice the occasional broken glass or small pothole. So far (knocking furiously on wood) we have not had a flat in about 200 miles.
The Schwalbes are so smooth that they transformed the ride quality of our Cannondale RT1000. It feels like they roll fast, too.
A couple of other tandem teams we know use them and really like them.
We ride on mostly smooth, clean roads, but sometimes I don't notice the occasional broken glass or small pothole. So far (knocking furiously on wood) we have not had a flat in about 200 miles.
06-12-13, 02:13 PM
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Luckily forks can be replaced fairly easily and at a reasonable cost. Those with tandem frames that will not accept tires wider than 25mm have limited their options.
06-12-13, 04:39 PM
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Other ENVE 2.0 fork users have successfully used 28 mm tires. Discussed here at Velo News.
The big Challenge tire [measured at 29 mm] barely fit inside the Enve fork on my test bike. It's important to set up the brakes using the quick release and the barrel adjuster so you can loosen both to get the wheel off.
Also here, and with an Ultremo:
This image is of a 28 ultremo r.1 on velocity a23 wheel. A few mm all around.
This poster reports fitting an Ultremo 28 mm ZX.
I have a wheelset with Velocity A23 (wide) rims on the bike and Schwalbe Ultremo ZX, 700x28 mounted which measures an actual 31MM across. There's 3MM on each side and about 5MM between the top of the tire and the bottom of the fork.
06-12-13, 04:44 PM
#19
Clipless in Coeur d'Alene
For a tour in Germany this fall I plan to run 28mm Conti 4Seasons on "skinny rim" (18.5mm) Spinergy wheels and with our Enve 2.0 fork. Currently we are running the same tire in 25mm has plenty of clearance so I don't see a problem fitting the 28mm either. Calfee advertises their standard frame setup as accepting a 28mm tire, so we'll see.
That is, unless I find a wider (~23mm) rim choice. I am confident that a 23mm rim w/25mm tire would be a perfect allround combo for us.
---
Since I posted just after Ritter's examples above, I have just one point to make about the last one, re:Ultremo 28mm ZX... he has a 23mm rim which will pull down the tire height vs a ~19mm rim which would make the tire profile taller.
That is, unless I find a wider (~23mm) rim choice. I am confident that a 23mm rim w/25mm tire would be a perfect allround combo for us.
---
Since I posted just after Ritter's examples above, I have just one point to make about the last one, re:Ultremo 28mm ZX... he has a 23mm rim which will pull down the tire height vs a ~19mm rim which would make the tire profile taller.
Last edited by twocicle; 06-12-13 at 04:50 PM.
06-12-13, 05:20 PM
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I will be trying those Challenge Parigi Roubaix next, but still have a ways to go on this set of GP4000 25mm.
06-12-13, 05:25 PM
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For a tour in Germany this fall I plan to run 28mm Conti 4Seasons on "skinny rim" (18.5mm) Spinergy wheels and with our Enve 2.0 fork. Currently we are running the same tire in 25mm has plenty of clearance so I don't see a problem fitting the 28mm either. Calfee advertises their standard frame setup as accepting a 28mm tire, so we'll see.
That is, unless I find a wider (~23mm) rim choice. I am confident that a 23mm rim w/25mm tire would be a perfect allround combo for us.
---
Since I posted just after Ritter's examples above, I have just one point to make about the last one, re:Ultremo 28mm ZX... he has a 23mm rim which will pull down the tire height vs a ~19mm rim which would make the tire profile taller.
That is, unless I find a wider (~23mm) rim choice. I am confident that a 23mm rim w/25mm tire would be a perfect allround combo for us.
---
Since I posted just after Ritter's examples above, I have just one point to make about the last one, re:Ultremo 28mm ZX... he has a 23mm rim which will pull down the tire height vs a ~19mm rim which would make the tire profile taller.
06-12-13, 07:01 PM
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I am inclined to think it is the fork rather than the tyre which is causing the lack of clearance.
Just did some measuring.
28mm Ultremo ZX on 19mm Mavic rim at 100psi was 29mm wide.
28mm Ultremo ZX on 23mm Hed Belgium rim at 100psi was 30mm wide and 0.8mm lower in profile.
Just did some measuring.
28mm Ultremo ZX on 19mm Mavic rim at 100psi was 29mm wide.
28mm Ultremo ZX on 23mm Hed Belgium rim at 100psi was 30mm wide and 0.8mm lower in profile.
Last edited by Dean V; 06-12-13 at 07:16 PM.
06-12-13, 08:09 PM
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06-12-13, 08:16 PM
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Since I too have an ENVE 2.0 fork, I had looked into this. ENVE specs the 28 mm tire as the maximum tire width.
Other ENVE 2.0 fork users have successfully used 28 mm tires. Discussed here at Velo News.
The big Challenge tire [measured at 29 mm] barely fit inside the Enve fork on my test bike. It's important to set up the brakes using the quick release and the barrel adjuster so you can loosen both to get the wheel off.
.
Other ENVE 2.0 fork users have successfully used 28 mm tires. Discussed here at Velo News.
The big Challenge tire [measured at 29 mm] barely fit inside the Enve fork on my test bike. It's important to set up the brakes using the quick release and the barrel adjuster so you can loosen both to get the wheel off.
.
Last edited by waynesulak; 06-12-13 at 08:20 PM.
06-12-13, 09:44 PM
#25
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Merlin nailed the discussion concerning the Pro trend of matching rim & tire widths for aerodynamics.
Also, as discussed in the "19mm rim" thread, using tires that are much wider than the outer rim width will increase the amount of tire "flop" while cornering. So, if you are looking for performance (ie: high speed) cornering, going with a wider tire on a narrow rim is not the best setup.
IMO, you would be better off first looking at the rim widths and profiles the pros are using (med-tall & wide ie: >= 21mm), then match an appropriate tire.
Also, as discussed in the "19mm rim" thread, using tires that are much wider than the outer rim width will increase the amount of tire "flop" while cornering. So, if you are looking for performance (ie: high speed) cornering, going with a wider tire on a narrow rim is not the best setup.
IMO, you would be better off first looking at the rim widths and profiles the pros are using (med-tall & wide ie: >= 21mm), then match an appropriate tire.