dwing

The bottom bracket in this Lotus Odyssey has too much play in the spindle, and I'm sure the needle bearings need to be replaced. I'd like to install a modern cartridge type while I attempt to find and replace the needle bearings in the original. The crank is Sugino triple Mighty Tour and it's shifting thru all 6 cogs of a Suntour NW Ultra very nicely at this point even with the play in the crank.

Given the measurements my questions are; Should I get a UN55 in a 118 (use DS shim) or 122.5? (not sure if there's offset to these), Is there another BB choice I should consider? (not afraid to spend more money within reason), How do I go about replacing the needle bearings? Do I need special tools, Do I take the cups to a shop? I'm pretty handle and have home work shop, and where can I order them from?

hermanchauw

dwing

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, a new 114 that's symetrical won't work. Are the 114 bb's assyemtrical that much to the drive side???
The original spindle length is 114, but, I have it installed offset to the driveside +5.7mm more than the non-drive side which sets the chainline appropriately. Also, there's approx 2mm between small chain ring and stay, so, not a lot of clearance but it shifts very well. The reason I'm going to replace the needle bearings in the original is the BB is that it is adjustable side to side via the cups, so, fine tuning is easily done.

fietsbob

was not what was on there from OEM, in Japan. you are not the original owner,
Right?

One advantage Phil Wood BB have is the spindle is a press fit within the inner bearing ID
so the offset is adjustable, by pulling the spindle towards the side you wish longer.
in addition , the mounting rings allow a further fine tuning of the chainline

MUSA... Phil continues Bullseye has not.


....
Symmetrical BB you pick the one with the drive side of the appropriate Length
and accept the NDS is not your ideal length..

Sugino triple Mighty Tour * used longer DS, (TA likewise),
newer cranks were designed to use shorter DS spindles ,
By having their profile coming in to meet them..

*All 3 chainrings on a 110 bcd.. so can be a 50 34 double too
<a modern option on many bikes>




...

SBinNYC

You are correct. You want the 26 mm for proper chainline. Thus for a symmetrical bottom bracket the spindle length should be: 26 + 68 + 26 = 120 mm.

You can use bottom bracket spacers, if you are OCD and want to micro adjust the chainline. Use the spacer on the bottom bracket to move the chainwheels out; use the space on the freewheel to effectively move the chainwheels in.

WizardOfBoz

Not a big fan of the double needle and double thrust bearing setup. It does give you some adjustment. Fietsbob pointed out that the Phil Wood BBs have some adjustability, and they're very high quality bearings.

If you do decided to replace the needles and cage, you should probably check the outer race and axle for wear, too.

Good luck, it looks like a really nice bike.

Bike Gremlin

Yes, that is a good observation. For all I know, most are almost symmetrical. At least the Shimano ones.

What's the clearance of the cranks from the chainstays? If they're very close, or if the left one gets closer than the right one, you might do fine with a symmetrical "modern" cartridge BB with a longer axle length.
To put it in other words - I'd not assume that the current setup is an optimal one - that approach has saved me a lot of headache in the past.

wschruba

A system that uses only thrust bearings and needle bearings will have play unless all the space inside is taken up on installation. I would try cleaning, regreasing, and reassembling, first. Needle bearings are not typically pressed into place, unless they are part of a cartridge, and the race is pressed in. A firm push should dislodge them from the cups.

FWIW, thrust bearings and needle bearings in your application would be unlikely to wear excessively from use, more likely corrosion. If you had a micrometer, you could measure the wear area for any appreciable difference as opposed to the unworn spots.

AnkleWork

What direction is the play? Radial, lateral, something else?

Andrew R Stewart 

While I agree with most all the advice I will suggest before any cost is incurred that you check out the crank arm taper fit and which of the current "standards" is the best choice, to keep the arms well secured to the new BB axle. Phil is the only brand that makes different tapers in a range of axle lengths AND can off set the axle WRT the bearings/retaining rings. Andy

dwing

I checked and there was a little bit of lateral play (side to side), so, I snugged the cups real good on both sides... Now there's hardly a hint of lateral play, but, the radial play stayed the same. It's significant as in the chain ring teeth move (wobble) 3-4mm when I grab the cranks and shake them back n forth.

I don't think the bike is worth investing in a Phill Wood BB, so, I'm leaning toward a Shimano cartridge UN55. However, the dilema is I only see 68x118 and 68x122.5 and the way I have the current chainline set is indicating I need a 120mm. So, do I order a 118 and use a shim.. or take the chance on a 122.5? Current setup, I have 2mm clearance between small chainring and the stay.

Also, I don't know how much the placement of the crank will change due to the taper of a UN55 (or whatever bb I purchase). I'm leaning toward the 122.5mm and hope it doesn't move the chainline out too much.

fietsbob

Ordering online you cannot see it before you buy it, at a B&M shop you can.

AnkleWork

Roller bearings can tolerate a little play much better than ball bearings. Maybe consider reassembly with good grease and riding.

dedhed

SKF and White Ind make 121mm, probably some others too.

Andrew R Stewart 

Trying to get within a mm or two without actually trying the set up is a big expectation. The reality is that how the arm fits the taper, how close to "perfect" dimensions the bike's BB drive side from frame centerline is, where along the BB shell does the chainstay reside, how the chainstay is indented (or not) are all variables that one has a very hard time really nailing down without actually trying a set up. When in doubt go for more stay/ring clearance.

This is one of the situations that working with your LBS can make things go far quicker. Andy

Bike Gremlin

+1
On both your posts in this topic (and most others ).

Except Shimano, who state the required axle length for their cranks, specifying chainline, most other cranks are trial and error, for me at least. Keeping various axle length BBs, starting with the one I think is most likely to fit, then going size up, or down, depending on the results after test fitting the cranks. If there is a way to know up front as accurately as possible, I'm eager to learn. Also any rule of thumb charts for best possible starting point would be great. The best I have found so far is Sheldon Brown's Bottom bracket size database.