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Radial lacing front 28h on 36h rim? Help with calculations

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Radial lacing front 28h on 36h rim? Help with calculations

Old 06-20-19, 11:42 AM
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Estuche
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Radial lacing front 28h on 36h rim? Help with calculations

Hi, is this viable? If so how can I calculate the spoke length based on differences in angles, etc? It's a small wheel (349mm) and a strong rim (m14a) and hub (phil wood).
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Old 06-20-19, 12:00 PM
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Why?

24 is 2/3* of 36 24 hole rim 36 hole IGH is used on my folding bike ... skips 1 hole in 3. in the hub
* 0.66666666666666666666666666666666666666

1.50.
36 '/, 28 is . 1.2857142 ... so leave pushing that rock up hill to Sisyphus.

36 hub, 36 rim, 28 to 28 .. why take on a PITA?
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Old 06-20-19, 12:05 PM
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Haha I was hoping that radial lacing would simplify things a bit!

Can you elaborate on that 24h rim to 36h IGH lacing? What cross pattern is used on your wheel? Also, what do you mean by *0.67?
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Old 06-20-19, 02:29 PM
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To be truly radial, the rim holes and the hub holes should line up. 36 holes in rim means a hole every 10°. 28 holes in hub mean a hole every 12.857°. There's no way for them to line up.
You could just skip 8 spokes. Divide 38 by 8. You'd have to skip every 3.75th spoke. Meaning you'd have to alternate between skipping a spoke every 3rd spoke, and every 4th spoke. Which means you'd be skipping spokes on the same side sometimes.

Not advisable. Buy a new rim to match hub or vice versa.

Of course, this is for a front wheel that's not disc brake, correct? You can't use radial spoking on disc brake wheels, or the DS of rear wheels.

Originally Posted by Estuche
Haha I was hoping that radial lacing would simplify things a bit!

Can you elaborate on that 24h rim to 36h IGH lacing? What cross pattern is used on your wheel? Also, what do you mean by *0.67?
You don't lace radial to simplify things, you do it for a specific performance enhancement. A bit lighter, a bit stiffer laterally and radially. Much less strong and stiff tangentially. Ok for front rim brake wheels and possibly for rear NDS. Idiotic for anything else.

The 2/3, or 0.666... ratio that fietsbob mentioned is I think the ratio of spokes to holes. For his IGH, its the ratio of rim holes (24) and spokes to hub holes (36). This means that there's an extra 12 hub holes, 6 on each side. 12/36=2/3=0.667. And he mentions that every third hub hole is unused. So on each side of the hub you have Spoke, Spoke, empty.

One wheel maker just does 2 cross for nearly everything rim brake. Probably ok if you are not a big person. 3 cross is a defacto standard for general purposes. It's how my Schwinn Paramount was laced. If you have disc brakes, 3 cross is the recommended pattern for just about every wheel I've seen. But I don't have as much wheel experience as fietsbob or others.

I'm currently lacing some 4 cross wheels, but that's because that's how they came from the factory (1978 Schwinn Superior, and 1973 Schwinn World Voyageur). I'm going to replace the spokes on my paramount wheels (36h) and will be lacing 3 cross.

On my Bontrager RLs, the rear wheel (24h, IIRC) is laced 2 cross, but has direct pull spokes on the DS. On my Paradigm Elites(24h), the rear DS is 2 cross and the NDS is radial.

Frankly, I'm guessing that anything I build going forward will be 3 cross. Easy. Dependable. Great performance.

Last edited by WizardOfBoz; 06-20-19 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 06-20-19, 06:28 PM
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The last frankenwheel I built was a 24h low flange hub on a 36h GP-4 that got three X on the drive side and radial on the non-drive. 12 new spoke holes drilled into the hub on the drive side, and all was good. Trying to fight a battle with not enough holes on either the hub or rim is not my kind of fun! And they are likely doomed to failure, so I don't even consider it. If you wind up doing what Bob says you will need to do differential spoke length calculations,which are time consuming and tedious even with computer generated programs. Pain in the Posterior is exactly right. Smiles, MH
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Old 06-20-19, 06:44 PM
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Oh Please

Originally Posted by fietsbob
24 is 2/3* of 36 24 hole rim 36 hole IGH is used on my folding bike ... skips 1 hole in 3. in the hub
* 0.66666666666666666666666666666666666666

1.50.
36 '/, 28 is . 1.2857142 ... so leave pushing that rock up hill to Sisyphus.

36 hub, 36 rim, 28 to 28 .. why take on a PITA?
Don't drink and post.
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Old 06-21-19, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz
You can't use radial spoking on disc brake wheels, or the DS of rear wheels.
I think the part about DS of rear wheels is a misconception. You can't use radial lacing on both sides of a rear wheel at the same time, but as long as you do only one, it doesn't matter if it's the drive or non-drive side. Shimano's R561 wheel, for example, has radial drive side and tangential on the non-drive, and I've ridden on a set for many years with no problem. I haven't heard any complaints that those wheels were any more susceptible to spoke failure than other Shimano wheels.

The rationale for doing it that way is to maximize the lateral distance on the drive side so the difference in tension between drive and non-drive is not as great. The torque applied by the chain is transmitted by the hub to both sets of spokes effectively enough that the non-drive side spokes are able to "protect" the drive side by resisting any twisting of the hub relative to the rim.
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Old 06-21-19, 08:04 AM
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Aerogut. I think we may be in violent agreement. You can't lace both sides of the rear wheel radially. You can lace both sides of the rear hub in 2,3, or 4 cross and this allows one or both sides to drive. You can lace either side of the rear hub to drive, and the other radial, with one stipulation: a rear hub laced to drive from the left (non-freewheel) side MUST BE TORSIONALLY STIFF. This was a point that Jobst Brandt made in his musings about wheels. Your R561 has a large diameter center section, somewhat like an old Phil Wood hub, and is stiff. This allows it to transmit torque from the freehub to the left side. If I tried that setup (radial spoking on the DS) with an old Campy Nuovo Record, I think that the spokes might fail. My Paradigm Elites wheels have the reverse setup: the cross pattern is on the DS, radial on the NDS.

Obviously, both setups work.

The OP seemed to be heading in a direction, though, that wasn't as well-thought-out as yours, nor with the experience factor that you have. Taking a bike wheel and arbitrarily lacing it radially, (in the near-impossible 28 to 36 pairing, no less!), is not an appropriate course. Lacing cross one side and radial on the other, in 24 to 36, for an expert who has a good reason, maybe. But I wanted to ensure that the OP didn't have a frustrating experience in lacing up a wheel radially and having his work break nearly immediately because radial lacing was inappropriate.

Also, we've become a little optimization-crazy about bikes and wheels and stuff. As an engineer: I get this. And if I were building wheels for a Tour or Giro competitor, we'd be sweating stuff down to the 12 or 14mm nipple question. But Eddy Merckx used 3-cross wheels on the road (near as I can tell from pictures) and he did pretty good. So I say one is better off getting on a bike and riding an hour a couple days in a row, with 3 cross, than spending hours trying to optimize weight by reducing spoke number and shortening spokes.

Last edited by WizardOfBoz; 06-21-19 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 06-21-19, 08:39 AM
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Sure seems like a complicated solution to a simple problem.

Other than proving to others that you can do it, I've never understood the point in taking the time it takes to lace non matching hubs and rims.
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Old 06-21-19, 09:48 AM
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WizardOfBoz, Apologies. I should have taken your statement in the context of the OP's need and not as a statement of universal truth.
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Old 06-21-19, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Estuche
Can you elaborate on that 24h rim to 36h IGH lacing? What cross pattern is used on your wheel? Also, what do you mean by *0.67?
2 cross .. in a large gear hub shell the spokes cross as they pass the vacant hole in the hub,

and each other on opposite sides of the hub flange..

24/36ths?
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Old 06-21-19, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by AeroGut
WizardOfBoz, Apologies. I should have taken your statement in the context of the OP's need and not as a statement of universal truth.
Well, both (specifics and universals) are important. No offense taken, and I hope my defect (wordiness) wasn't taken as insulting. After all, we agree!
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Old 06-22-19, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz
Well, both (specifics and universals) are important. No offense taken, and I hope my defect (wordiness) wasn't taken as insulting. After all, we agree!
I hadn't thought about radial DS, crossed nds. Logical granting stiff hub design. Appreciate the civil back and forth...
Eric
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Old 06-22-19, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch
Sure seems like a complicated solution to a simple problem.

Other than proving to others that you can do it, I've never understood the point in taking the time it takes to lace non matching hubs and rims.
Bike Friday used to regularly lace 36h hubs onto 24h rims.

I'll have to look at again, but I think they put the extra hole between the spokes making the first cross, thus moving that cross out slightly.

As far as skipping spoke holes at the rim, Campagnolo laces their wheels in triplets. 2 opposite crossed spokes from the drive side + 1 radial spoke from the NDS.

However, I believe they use straight radial lacing on the front, as creating gaps in the lacing would cause spoke tensions to be extremely uneven.
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Old 06-22-19, 02:03 PM
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everything is proprietary..
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Old 06-22-19, 02:59 PM
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Triplet lacing is so beautiful. Not just aesthetically, but technically.
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Old 06-22-19, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott
Triplet lacing is so beautiful. Not just aesthetically, but technically.
In Triplet lacing like the Shamal Ultra (which is the wheelset I've been jonesin over), is the center spoke at higher tension than it's two nearest neighbors?
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Old 06-22-19, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz
In Triplet lacing like the Shamal Ultra (which is the wheelset I've been jonesin over), is the center spoke at higher tension than it's two nearest neighbors?
In theory, all of them should be at about the same tension. With a conventional wheel, the NDS spokes are at about half the DS tension. With triplet lacing, you throw away half of the NDS spokes so that each one carries more of the load, and this allows you to run the DS spokes at a more reasonable tension.
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Old 06-22-19, 11:08 PM
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I have seen radial spoked 36 hole front 700c wheels ..

with that many spokes sharing the load , they don't need to be super tight, so may not pull out a flange hole ..






...
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Old 06-23-19, 09:58 AM
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Gosh, there's a lot of lore and knowledge here. ThermionicScott, I didn't realize that the triplet rear lacing did that (only used 1/2 the spokes on the NDS). Makes sense. This also highlights why they're laced in "triplet": if you didn't you'd have two spokes right next to each other pulling in the same direction. The triplet setup pairs the two DS spokes with one NDS. I guess this should have been obvious but I didn't grok it. Thx for 'splainin.

fietsbob, I have a couple of 20 spoke front 700c wheels laced radially with aero spokes. Both Bontrager. An older (2014) RL, and a more recent (2018?) set of Paradigm Elites. Interestingly, for me (and recall I'm 245# dripping wet) the RLs actually work better. The Elites are really comfortable and all, and work fine for me even at that weight, but the RLs, which are a step or two below the Paradigms in heirarchy, are just a little to flexy. Of course, like a lot of folks I figure its easier to optimize my wheels than to lose 30 lbs (at which point the Elites would be perfect!).

Thanks, fellas.
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Old 06-23-19, 10:22 AM
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My 1st (used) Brompton had a 20 spoke front wheel..

Aaron in Seattle , drilled 16 holes in a 32 hole R'off in between the original .. laced to a 48 spoke rim ..

sets of 3 .. a radial and the 2 cross on either side of it .. on each side ... non dished hub..

36 hole being evenly divisible by both 4 and 3 , you can do similar, ..
aka , 'crows foot' pattern .. 6 groups of 6 , vs 9 groups of 4 ..







....
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Old 06-24-19, 07:32 PM
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Well Wiz and Fiets,
It happened Saturday, A 28 hole wheel with a 28 hole hub spoked up 2x on the drive side, and radial on the nd side. Superbe pro hub with 8spd freewheel and all of the spokes so loose I couldn't remove the free wheel. I had to bastardize the spoke pattern to get enough grip to remove the FW, and then start on the wheel. And of course it was a bunch of bladed spokes. Went to UBI for lengths and they were all three mm too long for the wheel as set up. Another case of don't try to do this at home! My thoughts are that the original wheel was crashed and the owner just thought the new Mavic rim would just move onto the old one. I'm gonna rebuild it with 3x on both sides even with the cut outs for the bladed spokes, and do it with normal spokes, You guys are right that cut outs for the blades did some minor damage to the spoke holes but not enough to break the hub like the Campi one I posted elsewhere. Smiles, MH
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Old 06-25-19, 08:38 PM
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I think I might try a different route, the same 28h hub but laced as triplet on a 349mm 21h rim

Last edited by Estuche; 06-25-19 at 08:44 PM.
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