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Another NR RD capacity comment

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Another NR RD capacity comment

Old 04-26-19, 08:30 AM
  #1  
satbuilder 
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Another NR RD capacity comment

Last night I was putting together a '73 Bianchi that I'm planning on riding this Saturday for a local charity ride.

Last year I had built a '72 Cinelli with similar gearing, and everything worked just fine.

On the Cinelli, I was able to run a 14-28 5 speed freewheel, provided I removed the dropout adjusting screws.

I was building the Bianchi exactly the same. I even removed the chain from the Cinelli and made the Bianchi chain length identical.

Upon installing everything, I found the chain on the Bianchi way too loose, so I went back to the old "big-big + 1 link" chain sizing estimate. Reinstalled everything, and now I can't get on the big-big.

I haven't checked chainstay length, but my suspicion is they aren't the same.

Still a work in progress.
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Old 04-26-19, 08:53 AM
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Old 04-26-19, 09:05 AM
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Looking at your picture, suggest you slide the rear wheel forward in the dropouts to give (effectively) more chain.

In general, when the chain's on the small / small combination, the pulleys should be at the limit of their take up. See pic of the "positive net worth" Cinelli s/n 1183 below. Note the position of the pulleys and the location of the axle in the rear dropouts.

If your Bianchi - which looks very nicely turned out by the way - is missing the dropout adjuster screws, ebay seller Ti Cycles has some really nice ones in stainless steel that are better than the original.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dropout-adj...n/182263111133

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA
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Old 04-26-19, 10:01 AM
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Thanks Mark. Beautiful Cinelli you have there!

I took the adjusters out in order to slide the rear wheel all the way back in the dropout. That was the only way I could get clearance between the jockey wheel and 28t sprocket. It was late, I was tired and I'll give it another look later today.

Kurt
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Old 04-26-19, 10:13 AM
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Hmmmm.
Might want to check the distance between the axle and the dropout hole on both bikes and see if they are different. Just a small difference at the mounting hole for the RD can make a big difference at the big cog.
In my experience, 28 with an NR RD is always a bit of a stretch, while the SR RD seems to do it more easily.
If your chain length is set at big-big plus a linkset, it should be correct for this application. What happens when you try to shift into big/big?
Too tight? Skates across the freewheel?
What kind of freewheel are you using? When trying to use larger freewheels, have always had the best luck with mid-late 80's Shimano UG series. Now that I think about it, also used 10 tooth Shimano pulley wheels on the RD.
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Old 04-26-19, 10:22 AM
  #6  
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Sweet bianchi OP...i love those seatposts
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Old 04-26-19, 10:50 AM
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Notice how the offset of the top pulley from the cage pivot allows the pulley to move through an arc as the chain moves from one chainring to the other.
So the secret to this working optimally (as best as can be achieved with existing gearing) will be for the top pulley to be the same distance from the freewheel in each of the two chainring positions with the largest cog selected.
Consideration should also be given to the chain gap between pulley and freewheel when the chain is on the small chainring, as interference might occur at that time.
This is achieved by fine-tuning the chain's length, and you might have to add chain length/slack if the reason that the chain won't climb to the largest cog while in the big ring is because the pulley is being pulled too far from the freewheel as the cage rotates counter-clockwise.

You didn't say whether there is a problem with physical contact between pulley and freewheel or if the problem is that the chain won't move to the largest cog because of an excessive chain gap, so that should be the first thing to determine here.

Last edited by dddd; 04-26-19 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 04-26-19, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by satbuilder
... now I can't get on the big-big.
"Doctor, it hurts when I do this!"

"Don't do that."

.

Sheldon would love that joke.
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Old 04-26-19, 01:06 PM
  #9  
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Originally Posted by dddd
Consideration should also be given to the chain gap between pulley and freewheel when the chain is on the small chainring, as interference might occur at that time.
This is achieved by fine-tuning the chain's length, and you might have to add chain length/slack if the reason that the chain won't climb to the largest cog while in the big ring is because the pulley is being pulled too far from the freewheel as the cage rotates counter-clockwise.
Exactly.

The BIG/big method often makes the chain length too short. Try adding a link.



Just to state the obvious, the BIG/big combination should not be used when actually riding. Same with SMALL/small. No doubt 99.9% of the people here know this, but I see people riding in them all the time...
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Old 04-26-19, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine
Exactly.

The BIG/big method often makes the chain length too short. Try adding a link.



Just to state the obvious, the BIG/big combination should not be used when actually riding. Same with SMALL/small. No doubt 99.9% of the people here know this, but I see people riding in them all the time...
I don't cross chain. But when putting a bike together, I try to get complete functionality, whether it's right or not.

After a little further examination, the chainring on the Cinelli is a 51, it's a 52 on the Bianchi. Chainstays on the Bianchi are also shorter. When doing this late last night, I originally had the dropout adjusters in place. Like the Cinelli, I had to remove them in order to gain clearance between the jockey wheel and the freewheel.

After these headaches, I'm thinking I'm just going to switch freewheels and live with it. I have a 13-26 that will probably do the trick.

Kurt
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Old 04-26-19, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by satbuilder
I don't cross chain. But when putting a bike together, I try to get complete functionality, whether it's right or not.
Yeah, agreed for sure. All gears should be fully functional, even if some only get used in the stand. I figured you and everyone here knows not to cross chain; it's just a box that had to be ticked. Sorry if it sounded condescending.

13-26 sounds like a plan.
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Old 04-26-19, 02:09 PM
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No worries. It didn’t come across that way to me.
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Old 04-26-19, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine
Yeah, agreed for sure. All gears should be fully functional, even if some only get used in the stand. I figured you and everyone here knows not to cross chain...
I cross chain with impunity.
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Old 04-26-19, 07:56 PM
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That is one beautiful Bianchi @satbuilder, you did a fantastic job on that one sir.
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Old 04-26-19, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mpetry912
Looking at your picture, suggest you slide the rear wheel forward in the dropouts to give (effectively) more chain.

In general, when the chain's on the small / small combination, the pulleys should be at the limit of their take up. See pic of the "positive net worth" Cinelli s/n 1183 below. Note the position of the pulleys and the location of the axle in the rear dropouts.

If your Bianchi - which looks very nicely turned out by the way - is missing the dropout adjuster screws, ebay seller Ti Cycles has some really nice ones in stainless steel that are better than the original.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dropout-adj...n/182263111133

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA
That Nuovo Record rear mech is of very late design, or a hybrid, the jockey cage is like the last generation Super Record.
One of the hidden aspects of Nuovo Record capacity is the Patent year... Campagnolo extended the distance from the upper attachment pivot to the top parallelogram links, a small amount but if you measure a Patent 70 (or earlier) to say a '74... not the same.
A reason why one who has a Nuovo Record mech curses a 28t, and another cakes it work.
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Old 04-26-19, 11:53 PM
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I put SR cages on my NR rears and I've never had any capacity issues with 28t freewheels.
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Old 04-27-19, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Kactus
I put SR cages on my NR rears and I've never had any capacity issues with 28t freewheels.
Are super record cages longer than nuovo record ones? that might explain why my super record derailleur does shift a little more easily to a 28t cog better than my NR mechs.

where do you get spare SR cages?
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Old 04-27-19, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by qcpmsame
That is one beautiful Bianchi @satbuilder, you did a fantastic job on that one sir.
Thanks! Once I get her complete, I’ll put up some more pics.
Rather than rush thru the final assembly, I have decided to take a different bike on today’s ride.
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Old 04-27-19, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage
That Nuovo Record rear mech is of very late design, or a hybrid, the jockey cage is like the last generation Super Record.
One of the hidden aspects of Nuovo Record capacity is the Patent year... Campagnolo extended the distance from the upper attachment pivot to the top parallelogram links, a small amount but if you measure a Patent 70 (or earlier) to say a '74... not the same.
A reason why one who has a Nuovo Record mech curses a 28t, and another cakes it work.
Wow.
Something new to learn every day!
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Old 04-27-19, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by rccardr
Wow.
Something new to learn every day!
Found by accident, was observing a few and noticed that the early units had a more refined shaping of the upper body surrounding the pivot / mounting bolt... whip out the calipers... sure enough different measures. The Secret Campy files...
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Old 04-27-19, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa
Are super record cages longer than nuovo record ones? that might explain why my super record derailleur does shift a little more easily to a 28t cog better than my NR mechs.

where do you get spare SR cages?
SR cages are a different shape than NR cages. I've found cages only on eBay and have also bought SR rears that have damage and/or missing parts.
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