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Severely stuck fixed cup of BB

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Severely stuck fixed cup of BB

Old 02-15-20, 08:01 AM
  #26  
Russ Roth
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Although these are neat tools, where do you put the big @ss wrench for the leverage you need or is it the little handles?
I've had cups I didn't really consider stuck and I still had to step on the wrench to get enough leverage just to get them loose. A tool like the different pics seems good for almost all and useless on the rest. And if a pipe wrench can bite in enough I'd worry about the hardness of the steel in the tool.
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Old 02-15-20, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Russ Roth
Although these are neat tools, where do you put the big @ss wrench for the leverage you need or is it the little handles?
I've had cups I didn't really consider stuck and I still had to step on the wrench to get enough leverage just to get them loose. A tool like the different pics seems good for almost all and useless on the rest. And if a pipe wrench can bite in enough I'd worry about the hardness of the steel in the tool.
...you can double up on the handle pieces (one on each side), then slip a pipe cheater over either side that is as long as you want it to be.
But grabbing the tool in the pipe jaws on a bench vise and twisting the frame is how you get maximum leverage.
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Old 02-15-20, 12:04 PM
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Has anyone ever tried to adapt an impact wrench in this situation? I’ve always found that the hammering action of a pneumatic or electric impact wrench is more effective than a big lever. Just a thought.
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Old 02-15-20, 12:20 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by JacobLee
Has anyone ever tried to adapt an impact wrench in this situation? I’ve always found that the hammering action of a pneumatic or electric impact wrench is more effective than a big lever. Just a thought.
How about you?
Most bike mechanics aren't going to be equipped with 1/2" or larger impact wrenches and an air compressor to keep up.
And you still have to hold the rest of the bike.
My "tool set" in post 7 hasn't failed me yet in 6 "frozen" cups.
Multiple applications of Liquid Wrench dribbled in the shell from the opposite side to run down into the threads. 1st application, keep dribbling as long as it keeps running into the threads.
7 whacks & 6 cups. I was too gentle on the very 1st whack. 2nd whack I KNEW the tool would stay in place.
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Old 02-15-20, 12:36 PM
  #30  
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I've take a bicycle frame with a really stubborn to remove fixed cup to a park and then strapped the frame to a picnic table. I then used my copy of Sheldon's fixed cup removal tool and a long handle (24+ inches) socket handle on the socket that I fitted over the bolt head. That always go the fixed cup loose.

However, upthread the OP said that his attempts were not working and it looked to him like the fixed cup was being destroyed. Thus I'd use a good quality penetrating solution copiously applied from inside the bottom bracket shell and then I'd put something over the fixed cup, support the non-drive side of the frame on something solid and then whack the protected fixed cup firmly with a good size hammer or mallet in the hopes that the shocks would help brea loose whatever was jamming the threads. I've seen master car mechanics do that on seaized bolts or nusts where they didn't have access to an impact wrench and it usually worked a treat.

Cheers
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Old 02-15-20, 12:41 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
How about you?
Most bike mechanics aren't going to be equipped with 1/2" or larger impact wrenches and an air compressor to keep up.
And you still have to hold the rest of the bike.
My "tool set" in post 7 hasn't failed me yet in 6 "frozen" cups.
Multiple applications of Liquid Wrench dribbled in the shell from the opposite side to run down into the threads. 1st application, keep dribbling as long as it keeps running into the threads.
7 whacks & 6 cups. I was too gentle on the very 1st whack. 2nd whack I KNEW the tool would stay in place.
Nope, never really needed to. As a contractor, though, impact drivers have become ubiquitous, as they have tons of power without relying on the same sort of torque that a drill uses. Same with auto mechanics, an impact wrench has a magical effect on stuck nuts and bolts. In this case, you could just have the bike in a stand and an impact wrench could hammer away without the need to hold the frame, really.

I’m not suggesting it’s a great idea, or that I’ve tried it, I just know that in other disciplines impact is the way to go. Might be an interesting experiment with a frame that isn’t too precious.
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Old 02-15-20, 12:59 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by JacobLee
Nope, never really needed to. As a contractor, though, impact drivers have become ubiquitous, as they have tons of power without relying on the same sort of torque that a drill uses. Same with auto mechanics, an impact wrench has a magical effect on stuck nuts and bolts. In this case, you could just have the bike in a stand and an impact wrench could hammer away without the need to hold the frame, really.

I’m not suggesting it’s a great idea, or that I’ve tried it, I just know that in other disciplines impact is the way to go. Might be an interesting experiment with a frame that isn’t too precious.
You still need a "tool retainer". Else you're going to have stripped tools and possibly worse problems.
At that point, a 4 lb. hammer takes less set up time. You don't have to connect it to its "power supply". You don't have to coil up & stow said "power supply".
It's akin to having your brain surgeon use a hammer & chisel to crack your skull.
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Old 02-15-20, 01:22 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by JacobLee
Has anyone ever tried to adapt an impact wrench in this situation? I’ve always found that the hammering action of a pneumatic or electric impact wrench is more effective than a big lever. Just a thought.

....mostly you see impact wrenches (either electric or pneumatic) suggested and used to remove freewheels.
But that's a case where the removal tool is already often manufactured to fit a square shanked socket ratchet.
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Old 02-15-20, 01:31 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
....mostly you see impact wrenches (either electric or pneumatic) suggested and used to remove freewheels.
But that's a case where the removal tool is already often manufactured to fit a square shanked socket ratchet.
Doesn’t the sheldon browne homemade tool rely on a socket wrench? Seems like a natural place to use an impact socket.
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Old 02-15-20, 02:03 PM
  #35  
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The only one I have ever taken off I used a vise to hold the flats on the cup and the frame as a lever.
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Old 02-15-20, 02:06 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Russ Roth
Although these are neat tools, where do you put the big @ss wrench for the leverage you need or is it the little handles?
You slide a cheater pipe over the handle. The Campagnolo tool comes with one (part 793/4 in the illustration); for the others you supply your own. And, as noted, the Campagnolo tool can be clamped in a vise so you can use the frame itself as a lever.
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Old 02-15-20, 02:07 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by gearbasher
^^^ You would think VAR would at least have the fixed cup on the proper side of the bike in it's illustration.
"French thread," no doubt.
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Old 02-15-20, 02:17 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by JacobLee
Doesn’t the sheldon browne homemade tool rely on a socket wrench? Seems like a natural place to use an impact socket.
That means you have given up and are willing to destroy the cup to get it off.
Sometimes you are desperate to SAVE the cup.
My method works as a 1st resort too, AND saves the cup.
Your inexperience really shows.
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Old 02-15-20, 02:44 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
That means you have given up and are willing to destroy the cup to get it off.
Sometimes you are desperate to SAVE the cup.
My method works as a 1st resort too, AND saves the cup.
Your inexperience really shows.
Like I said, it was just an idea. Just musing on possible solutions for tough situations. Tools do tend to evolve over time, so no harm in keeping an open mind.
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Old 02-15-20, 05:00 PM
  #40  
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I own the VAR tool, which I use for my own projects. When it comes to my local co-op it is more like junk yard mechanics. Two weeks ago I had a youngster in trying to remove the adjustable cup of his BB. Went to the tool board and found the thin walled tool to move the cup,but it was frozen in place. (cups were so worn they pushed the threads into the BB shell) So I showed him how to use a socket and some washers, and the spindle nut to clamp the whole lot together. Had to use the frame straightening bar with 3' of leverage to get the cup to come loose. Easy? not so much. But did learning occur? yes. He now has an appreciation of how to make it work as BK's solution and my junk yard approach. Yes I am using the Var side of the BB shell pictured but it works the same way on both sides.
Now about the impact thing, I have a 1/2" drive black socket that I have cut the ends out of with much tribulation to fit on fixed cups. So far no need to get it out, but it is in the works. I have also looked at a 36mm open end/box end wrench at Menards for $20 that looks like a real beefy tool to use with a c-clamp and two blocks of wood. Because of the size, I am not sure about a cheater bar to fit on it. But the wrench is about 14" long, (plenty of room for BK's hammer!) Smiles, MH
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Old 02-15-20, 05:28 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by JacobLee
Doesn’t the sheldon browne homemade tool rely on a socket wrench? Seems like a natural place to use an impact socket.
....the essential problem with that kludge is that it relies on friction between the washers involved and the cup. When a cup is stuck enough, it slips. Once it starts slipping, it seldom stops. An impact wrench might very well do something to loosen the cup threads, but then you're going to have to get it off the fixed cup after impact wrenching it on there.

Anyway, I was doing enough of this to warrant buying a Hozan, and it works on everything I've tried it on. And some of that stuff was pretty stuck. It's worth seeking out someone who owns one, like the ever decreasing number of local shops.

We bought one for the co-op here, and it got/gets used a lot.
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Old 02-15-20, 06:15 PM
  #42  
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Trip Alarmer, and BK,
The cup is already trashed as it can't hold the retaining seal. The best solution is the cup retainer socket made by the major manufacturers. But sometimes there are work arounds that help us in the world of junk restorations and it is always good to know what others are doing. Smiles, MH
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Old 02-15-20, 06:26 PM
  #43  
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While this was a cartridge, sometimes you just need lots of leverage.
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Old 02-15-20, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk
Trip Alarmer, and BK,
The cup is already trashed as it can't hold the retaining seal. The best solution is the cup retainer socket made by the major manufacturers. But sometimes there are work arounds that help us in the world of junk restorations and it is always good to know what others are doing. Smiles, MH
...the greatest workaround for fixed cups is a repaint. You can torch those suckers out without worrying about the paint.
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Old 02-15-20, 06:58 PM
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Ahhh yes! My favorite tool is the blue wrench! Nothing like the sound of rushing Acetylene and Oxygen to make the heart beat faster. Smiles, MH
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Old 02-15-20, 08:04 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by dedhed

While this was a cartridge, sometimes you just need lots of leverage.
Looks like a great time for an impact wrench!
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Old 02-15-20, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
That means you have given up and are willing to destroy the cup to get it off.
Sometimes you are desperate to SAVE the cup.
My method works as a 1st resort too, AND saves the cup.
Your inexperience really shows.
And let’s use our manners, Bill. I’m pretty sure your comment is against the spirit of the forums.
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Old 02-15-20, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by JacobLee
Looks like a great time for an impact wrench!
...not certain you've used an impact wrench in a circumstance like this. It's not like going at a lug nut on a car wheel, and the bicycle itself tends to move around easily. So the business end of the tool either slips out or can damage the little teeth in the BB fitting (they are either aluminum or plastic.) So it might work, but you're way better off bolting the tool to the sealed unit spindle with a properly sized bolt and some fender washers, putting either an adjustable or (better) properly sized box end wrench on the tool, and hitting the wrench with a mallet or hammer. Plus you get to use a hammer.
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Old 02-15-20, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...not certain you've used an impact wrench in a circumstance like this. It's not like going at a lug nut on a car wheel, and the bicycle itself tends to move around easily. So the business end of the tool either slips out or can damage the little teeth in the BB fitting (they are either aluminum or plastic.) So it might work, but you're way better off bolting the tool to the sealed unit spindle with a properly sized bolt and some fender washers, putting either an adjustable or (better) properly sized box end wrench on the tool, and hitting the wrench with a mallet or hammer. Plus you get to use a hammer.
The tool was bolted in. Fortunately the cup was Al. Worst one I ever had. It was the guys winter bike and never saw any maintenance. The spindle was already out as the bearings were literally gone so I had to McGuyver bolting the tool in. Also used plenty of Kroil over a week and the propane torch. I didn't really want to run an air hose through the house and into the basement for the impact. I had a bit more control with the breaker bar and pipe. As it was the BB threads in the Al shell needed some chasing afterward and I told him it was probably the last BB that would get installed in that frame.
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Old 02-15-20, 09:09 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by JacobLee
And let’s use our manners, Bill. I’m pretty sure your comment is against the spirit of the forums.
So is beating a dead horse without any effort to think things through.
IF it was a good idea, it would have been suggested earlier in the thread by someone knowledgeable.
I should have told you the blunt truth earlier.
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