jim-bob

Apologies if this is old news, but for 2004, kona's releasing the 'smoke', which has fenders and fairly upright seating position. Looks like a brand new version of the bike shop coffee run bike.

here's a link : Kona Smoke 2004

and here's a little picture for you :

I realize it's not your average drop bar + pannier commuter, but what do you think this bike's chances are out there in the real world?

Merriwether

Is that really what Kona calls its pedals, or is that a hack?

I think a touring bike is the best commuting rig, but if you want to get away with a cheaper bike something like this is a sensible option.

From Kona's point of view, keeping it simple is the right way to go. Some other companies have experimented with expensive integrated lights/gear displays, expensive suspensions, and other electronic crap on city bikes thinking there was some high end market for upright commuting bikes. If there is a market for upright, practical bikes that function reasonably well and still look kind of cool, it will be a cheap bike like this Kona that reaches it.

Still, the suggested retail's a bit pricey. A low-end, unsuspended Trek or Giant hybrid is under $300 U.S. Even adding on the fenders you'd save a few bucks compared to the Kona.

Maybe some manufacturers are starting to sense a market for practical bikes?

khuon

I like the concept even though it's not new. I guess I would say that I like the marketting strategy. However, I do agree that the price needs to come down a bit. Perhaps the dealers and LBSes will sell them for a bit cheaper. I imagine that under US$300 is right but I think given the level of the components, I would expect the selling price to be closer to US$250.

randya

No rack, no lights, no chain guard, tires too fat, not really an upright riding position--this bike is really just a low-end mountain bike with smooth-tread tires and fenders. Big deal. I personally think that a US market is finally developing for Euro-style city and commuter bikes, but this Kona doesn't cut it. Breezers https://www.breezerbikes.com/ are a much better domestic option. Kettlers https://www.kettler.net/e_frame_ie.html are a much better import option. Low-end versions of either will cost you about twice as much as the Kona, but they're both better bikes and you're looking at at least another $100 to fully equip the Kona for commuting.

PaulH

I agree -- just a cheap mountain bike with fenders. I'd go with the Breezer or the Kettler (come to think of it, I did go with the Kettler and have been riding it every workday for nearly three years.) I find both upright bikes and drop handlebar bikes comfortable, but not the mountain bike layout.

Paul

Merriwether

Well, it's not easy to find cheap, unsuspended mountain bikes anymore. And the smooth tires aren't a big deal, but it would cost some money to put them onto a mountain bike sold as a mountain bike. And on bikes around $300 even something like tires would be a signficant expense.

This Kona would compete with cheap hybrid or comfort bikes, not more expensive city bikes like breezers. Against the hybrids or comfort bikes, it would be a matter of style, whether someone wanted a mountain bike posture or a slightly more upright posture. Well, it would be, except for the price. When you're talking about hybrid bikes under $300, an extra $50 is a big ding.

I wonder about the market for practical bikes. If there is a large market for practical bikes in the U.S., it's for cheap ones. Don't you think? Young city dwellers, students, people who don't want to drive their cars around to do short errands. Most of these people probably won't want to spend $1000 on a practical bike.

I guess I don't see why such people wouldn't just buy a low-end hybrid for p<$300. Rack, fenders, and cheap generator/light for maybe $150. I wonder whether there really is a market for commuting bikes above this low price range.

Especially with real touring bikes, Fuji and Navarro, starting at $800, is there really a market for well made upright commuting bikes with good components? I ask seriously-- I just don't know.

I guess I have a rough idea that goes something like this. Only someone who rides a fair amount would buy a bike close to $1000. Someone who rides a lot is likely to know that drop bars, no suspension, good frame and components are the most desirable for street commuting. At least, they're not likely to be scared of bikes that lack fat tires, suspension, upright bars, or a fat seat. So why buy a breezer instead of a touring bike? Or a cross bike? Or one of those flat-bar road bikes? As I said, I'm curious.

There's something else about the commuting or city bikes that's puzzling, whether the Giant SUB or this Kona or the Breezers. It just doesn't seem like you save any money by buying the accessories as part of an integrated package. You can do as well by buying a bike you like and adding accessories you want. I wonder why that is.

PaulH

I need a chainguard brecause I am wearing office clothing. If I have to change clothing, or even put rubber bands on my pants leg, that is a hassle. I don't want to fiddle around adding lights, a rack, generator, or other necessaties. That's way too much hassle. Part of the reason for riding on these trips is that it is less hassle than taking my car.

Derailleurs are usually incompatible with chainguards, and they require too much maintenance, especially in winter. Converting a touring, mountain, or road bike to internal gears requires installing new dropouts and otherwise re-engineering the bike. I'd guess about $500 to buy a Nexus and install it onto a typical derailleur bike. Compared to that, the Breezers and their ilk are a remarkable bargan -- even if I don't count the time spent fiddling around with fenders, rack, lights.

Rim brakes are unacceptable to me because they are less effective in rain and require too much pad replacement and other mantenance, especially in winter. The winter sand and salt also causes the brakes to wear out the rims, leading to frequent wheel replacement. I used to get new wheels every year with my hybrid. (steel rims would last longer, but then wet stopping ability utterly disappears).

Anyhow, those are my reasons. A good city bike has about the same performance as a good hybrid, requires less fiddling, and is much more suitable for year-round use. Given that I save about $2,000 a year by riding to work, the extra cost is insignificant. In any case, the cost of replacing the chain, rims, and brake pads several times a year offsets the price difference quickly.

Now, if a rode a longer distance on each trip, rode less often, or enjoyed mechanics more, my answer would be different.

Paul

multisport4life

Could there be such a thing as:

A cyclocross type frame
with internal gearing 7-spd (or even more?)
disc brakes (or disc in front and hub in back?)
rack and panniers
chainguard and fenders

I know nothing at all about what I'm talking about...I'm just trying to imagine the benefits of a light but sturdy frame, low maintenance gearing that is protected from bad weather, lots of dependable stopping power (I've never used disc brakes so I don't know drawbacks), drop bars and all the racks and space usually needed. I'm just brainstorming.

In fact, if you peeps could design your own perfect commuter bike what would it be? You don't have to start from something that already exists. I think it would be interesting to hear about this.

khuon

I don't think I'd have to design it. I think one of the best commuter bike designs ever made was the Moulton bikes. I have no idea what they cost however but I understand they're fairly expensive which is a big drawback.

multisport4life

Ah ha, then it isn't the perfect commuter bike! It doesn't have to be someone like Joe Breeze who changes the face of cycling in this country. I guess what I meant to say was try to put together a bike (or maybe a couple of bikes) idea that would do what Breeze is trying to do but maybe more effectively. Who knows, maybe somebody will say something novel and it will 'click' for another person who can run with the idea and we eventually end up with the perfect bike(s). Maybe one bike for 1-15 mile commutes and another for 15+ miles. I don't know. Hey, isn't that how Linux became so successful?

khuon

Well... it's a perfect commuter bike design. Just not a perfectly marketable commuter bike design.

Merriwether

Yes, the chainguard is good.

I'd like to fit one like that on my touring bike.

zoridog

It looks like the result of a compromise between Kona's Marketing and Finance guys. They don't want to commit to the commuter market by designing an appropriate bike but the marketing data says it's a growing segment.

The result "Hey, let's just put fenders on a hardtail!"

The fact that it doesn't have a rack shows they didn't think it would sell at $400. I'll bet it doesn't make it to the 2005 catalog.

randya

I don't think that spending $500 to $1,000 dollars for a comfortable (not a road racing or trail riding position), functional (carries $50 worth or groceries or your stuff to the office, has lights for when you're out after dark, stops in the rain and keeps road spray and chain grease off your clothes, doesn't require a lot of maintenance or adjustment) urban bicycle is a lot of money for (1) someone who may not earn a lot of money but is car-free without a lot of consumer debt and really wants a functional bicycle with these features as their primary vehicle, and/or (2) middle class and/or retired folks who are willing to change their lifestyles and improve their health, and want a practical bicycle, not a sport-recreational one. Plenty of recreational cyclists spend this much and more on specialized road touring, racing or trail bicycles, why shouldn't the market support the equivalent in an urban bicycle? Like the SUV trend in motor vehicles, consumer 'demand' is often dictated by 'product placement'. Bicycle manufacturers have sold recreational bicycles for years on this basis. I think practical urban bikes are really what most people want--this is a case where the market exists but the product is not available, and when it is (i.e. the Specialized Globe, the fully equiped early Bianchi Milano, the Electra Commuter 7, all now RIP), the manufacturers and dealers just don't know how to promote it correctly--at least not in the US (Europeans have been sold on this style of bicycle for decades).

Chris L

One thing that intrigues me about bikes generally (and this one in particular - given that it seems to be targetting the commuter market) - why do they almost never come with at least a rear pannier rack and some form of basic lighting fitted as standard?

pickleTHEbeast

My car broke down a while back and I had to ride to work. I have a Kona Cindercone. I put slicks on it (which looks sweet by the way) and I had a spelunker light thing for my head. Roll up the right pant leg and you're off!

Dahon.Steve

I think Paul hit the nail on the head. I want to further add that a commuter bike cannot cost over $600.00 UDS! An expensive commuter will draw all the bike crooks and this offering by Kona is waaaaay over priced to be leaving on a rack with Huffy's and Magna bikes.

I find Joe Breeze's bike to be the standard by which all commuter bikes are to be judged. There's just one problem. His best bikes are almost $1,000.00 dollars! A commuter costing that much is too expensive to leave anywhere. Who can feel at ease going to work or shopping leaving that bike on the streets?

I still feel there is a need for someone who can make a cheap three speed bike with chain guard, fenders and rack for less than $150.00. I really believe it can be done but who's going to take the risk. A bike like this would be much better than the disposable Pacific toy store cycle I currently use.

It really gets me angry that one can only find cheap single speed beach cruisers for the price I mentioned.

Makoa

I agree with Dahon.Steve. I commute on a single-speed converted road bike. Drop bars, 44x16 gearing. I have to get a little creative to avoid big hills sometimes, but I find riding a single speed to be very liberating after riding geared bikes. Low maintenance, increased strength/fitness, and interesting comments from the geared-bike crowd I try to keep up with.

No rack or fenders, but that's mostly because I have not needed them. I ride in bike shorts/jersey with work clothes in a messenger bag or backpack.

PaulH

Single speed beach cruisers.
I spend a lot of my summer at Ocracoke Island, NC. It is a wonderful place, but it is also a place where there are no car rentals. Consequently, we rent bikes -- single speed cruisers for transportation. It is also a place that has a lot of salt spray and the highest rates of corrosion I have encountered anywhere. The available bikes are beach cruisers, and amazingly, they endure for years of salt spray and minimal maintenance. They are vastly more durable than their similarly-priced, multispeed "mart bike" siblings. Unless the hills are nasty, a cruiser may be a very good choice for commuting. I made 8 mile trips on one as a teenager all the time in a hilly area.

Expensive commuter bikes:
Arguing the other end of the situation, the daily car parking in my office garage is $6 (free for bikes). Security there is very good -- nothing is ever stolen or vandalized. Taking 250 annual trips times $6 is $1,500 in money saved EXCLUDING car expenses (which would have to reflect some potential for parking dents). At that rate, a $1,000 bike is chump change -- I could lose one a year and still come out ahead of driving. I also suspect that if you can afford a couple of grand for a bike, you probably have enough gravitas to wangle secure parking at your workplace.

Paul

Merriwether

I'd be willing to agree with you about the theft risk, in the big East Coast cities, at least. Many other places it would be safe to ride an expensive commuter bike around. I do it, anyway, with no problems. I live now in a small Midwest town. I even leave the HID light on there around town. No one here knows what it is.

No one around here is interested in anything other than BMX bikes. That's all the kids ride. All the adults drive cars.

A 520 with panniers-- not interesting.

Arguing the other end of the situation, the daily car parking in my office garage is $6 (free for bikes). Security there is very good -- nothing is ever stolen or vandalized. Taking 250 annual trips times $6 is $1,500 in money saved EXCLUDING car expenses (which would have to reflect some potential for parking dents). At that rate, a $1,000 bike is chump change -- I could lose one a year and still come out ahead of driving. I also suspect that if you can afford a couple of grand for a bike, you probably have enough gravitas to wangle secure parking at your workplace.

Man... memories. I saved God-knows-how-much over several years in San Francisco, NYC, and Los Angeles. Huge parking fees avoided. I never appreciated my bike quite as much as the times when I wasn't paying $10 to park somewhere.

KonaSmoker

Well I recently got a Kona Smoke after a few months research for an errand machine.

I aggravated my neck playing rugby and was made worse from a car accident, so I have a real hard time on drop handlebars. So road stuff was out.

I looked at Breezer, and I think that Joe is really on the right track here. Why I didn't end up buying one is that according to Joe, it was spec'd for 225 lbs. I am a Clydesdale and weigh more than that.

I also liked the Bianchi Milano, but I was underwhelmed with the connection points for a rack.

I finally went with the Kona Smoke. At $349, it really is well made. Good range of gears. And steel. Steel. The thing even weighs less than my friend's Cannondale Adventure 1000 hybrid.

I do have a couple issues with it, but this may be to me personally, I would put better grips on the thing, and the quick release seat clamp has got to go.

All in all I am happy with the purchase. It is cheap enough that I can get back into better shape with it, cheap enough that I can beat it into the ground in the process, and cheap enough that with a basic lock set up in a reasonably safe town I ain't worried about it being stolen.

catatonic

Why not jsut design a front deraileur compatible chainguard, and post the design on the internet then....I'm sure within a few months tons of companies will be making their own versions of it then.

Really it's not too hard...you jsut have to addin a hump for the deraileur housing. Or even a cutout, but that would require having to keep teh deraileur rather clean.

The downside to this is how to deal with a chain that blew off the rings....a bit harder doing that from the left side.

operator

Pardon the ignorance... why are drop bars better than regular upright bars for commuting?

mguisado

I purchased a Kona for commuting after looking at what was available the Dew Deluxe was the best option for me. The Kona Smoke is just one of Kona's offerings, it's not for everyone. But the Dew series looks much more like a serious commuting machine.

jfz

I have been using a 3 speed Schwinn for my 20 mile round trip commute (with hills). I got tired of poor selection of 26" tires and the crank set is wearing out so I began to look for a new bike to commute on. the selection is slim, i really liked the Breeze but it is a 100 mile round trip to the nearest dealer. I live in an area with many Trek dealers so I was elated when I saw the commuting bikes in the 2004 catalog, however when I went to the dealers they did not even have one commuting bike. I ended up buying a Trek 820 on sale for $169.95, I have been using it for about two months now and it isn't too bad but I would really llike what steve.dahon is suggesting- a $150.00 3-speed-I agree that it can be done and I think we will see one soon in the next year or so.