RadDog

Greetings,

This is something I learned from a cat 3 racer many decades ago, but it still works. I would like to get a little feedback.

I ride one hour every other day (and weight train every other day for 1.5 hours) using the following program: I alternate my training between zones 2 and 4.

I live in a big master planned community with wonderful tarmac. My zones are based upon 5: Zone one is barely any effort, zone 2 is about 70% effort, zone 3 (Tempo) about 75-80% effort, zone 4 is 85-90% effort and zone 5 is all out and not sustainable.

When I am on residential streets I peddle in zone 2. When I go out into the larger streets, thoroughfares, I go hard, zone 4. I list zone 4 as 90% or slightly less effort, but after 1 or 2 minutes in zone 4 your legs are screaming and heart rate is around 90% of Vo2 Max. I then drop back down to zone 2. My legs are still burning and heart pounding for the first minute or so in zone 2, but eventually my heart rate comes back down to around 70% and then I blast into zone 4 again. I don't record distance or speed, I just go zone 2-4, with some occasional zone 3 tempo work. I do this for one hour.

I am posting this in the 50 and older forum (I am 58) because I do not recover like I used to, and would like some feedback.

asgelle

You say your plan still works so what feedback are you looking for? I'd say as long as it works for you, why change anything?

caloso

A couple of questions:

1) What do you mean by "X% effort"? Is that base on heart rate, power, or perceived effort?
2) What are your goals? Do you want to increase endurance? If so, for how long? Do you want to get faster? If so, faster how? For steady TT efforts? Sprinting? Dig and recover? The answer to those questions can help inform feedback I could provide.

Iride01 

I don't do detailed training plans either. I just know that there are times when I need to go hard zone 4 and 5 for a time and then times I'll be at zone 3. On 30 or so mile rides I'll wind up with over half my time in zone 4. Longer rides see more time in zone 3.

Zone 2? I suppose only while I'm slowing to stop at crossings or for slow traffic ahead.

So I do agree, with what I think is your message. There isn't a need to make and follow detailed workout plans for most of us. If someone finds great joy doing that, then I'm okay with that. Creating workouts is almost as annoying to me as creating a course to ride or drive. To much minutiae.

jppe

I’m not an expert, but my buddies tell me that short bursts of zone 4/5 are best for us mature crowd. I haven’t tried it so I can’t substantiate it. I’m more into the constant wattage for 5-6 hour rides.

RadDog

Primarily, I want to be as fast as possible in bursts and recover as quickly as possible. I am a competitive bodybuilder who loves, loves, loves to ride. One hour is the perfect amount of time for ultimate conditioning. More, and I will eat too much muscle, but I need a full hour to get really lean. Did I mention I love to ride? Gravel, MTB, road.

I alternate, weight train (1.5 hours) one day, ride one hour the next. I thought doing so would prevent overtraining, but it seems I have been pushing that envelope. I am surprised, as I could do back to back to back 100 mile days when I was younger, and I had no training plan back then, I just rode.

To clarify, zone 4 is hard....heart rate goes over 90% of max. Zone 2 is easier, but I am still huffing and puffing from zone 4, so perceived effort in zone 2 is high at first. When my heart rate drops below 80% is when I blast back into zone 4. After an hour I am pretty hammered.

asgelle

Where is that coming from?

Generalizations are generally wrong, but I can say with confidence that there is no one size fits all training regimen that is best for everyone.

RadDog

From years of experience in contest prep for bodybuilding. My goals are different from those who are looking to do a century or longer rides. 1 hour maximizes fat loss, while doing more cardio will eat too much muscle tissue. This, of course, is not a concern for most cyclists. My total weekly training is 9 hours, but only 3.5 of that is on the bike.

caloso

You might want to look into CX workouts. A classic one is several sets of 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off. The ons are all out, the offs are coasting. You don’t need a HRM, just the stopwatch function on your computer. In fact, because HR lags so much, and because you won’t get a full recovery, it’s not even worth looking at HR during the intervals.

RadDog

Sure. A lot is dictated by the length of mainline roadway I am on and of course traffic. I go hard on the road ways where the speed limit is 35 but everyone does 45. It is Texas, so bikes are considered as treasonous and are targeted. I take the slow lane and try and maintain as fast a pace as possible, until I turn off into a residential street and back down. It is a bit misleading to say zone 4 because I am usually getting some pretty serious lactate and lung burn. I try and target it so I hit the wall right before I turn off so maybe it is zone 4.5. It will usually be less than 3/4 mile so I try and gauge it so I go as fast as I can for that distance. My legs stay big this way too.

I read about zones and people have different takes. Let me put it this way: I peddle as hard as this old man can for a bit and then spin. What I really want to do is coast, but I force myself to keep spinning until the lactate and heart rate come down, and then do it again. So back and forth. If I do a really long stretch, which I don't too much, I do tempo, zone 3. For me I am still riding pretty hard. I will start to really burn and wind up my HR and then realize I better back down a touch if I want to last.

AlgarveCycling

As has been mentioned, we all benefit from training tailored to what works best for us as individuals albeit we can take a lot from general programmes and adapt to suit according to our personal goals.

I train between 16-20 hours a week, typically, with 2 hard days, 1 or 2 medium days, 1 or 2 recovery days and 1 or 2 rest days, depending how much recovery I need from the harder days.

One hard day will be a HIIT day which while being mostly Zone 1 and 2, will have a series of explosive Zone 4 and 5 intervals on local hills that leave me completely drained, 'blood taste in the mouth', finished. I use Strava segments to chase the top of the leaderboards as goals for this type of training, helps push me further than I might otherwise go as I am inherently lazy! The other hard day will be a longer ride, circa 80 - 100 miles with at least an hour in that of Zone 4, usually an average overall speed of 20 - 22mph and minimum 3500ft, but up to around 6000ft climbing. It will include some Zone 5 when sprinting, virtually nil Zone 1.

A medium day for me is a shorter ride, circa 30 - 40 miles at Zone 2 - 3, with a little Zone 4 or a longer, steeper ride at mostly Zone 2. Recovery rides are 25 - 40 miles, Zone 1 and 2.

I work out my Zones via HRM (chest) and a Stages Power Meter (working with my ftp and max power) which feed into my Garmin (and Strava).

I prefer road but I race mostly XC MTB (because that is more common where I live and the only real racing series locally) so my training involves both. This year it has been 80% road though with no racing due to COVID.

jadocs

This is apples to oranges.

I know what you are talking about because I also did that when I was younger as a NPC qualified middleweight. This is 12 week out contest prep where you are doing a 6 day double split and one hour of cardio on your off days for fat loss only. Even then the one hour of cardio is only done where you can hold still hold a conversation...not a whole lot of effort. It is nested within a super strict training routine and diet.

Iride01 

I have to ask what maximizes fat loss during that one hour? Everything I've ever read seems to indicate that when exercising the conversion of fat to energy occurs at a fairly constant rate. It only marginally increases with additional demands of increased activity.

So I don't know why 1 hour is perfect, unless that is all the time you have to exercise. Seems like any amount of time you exercise is going to be ideal for burning fat.

In my case, when I do short rides, I feel I eat back all the Calories I burn by the time I do the next ride. However for long rides of three hours or more, I can't even begin to hold that many Calories. And my bathroom scale rewards me when I do several long rides close together.

oldwinger14

My typical workout/rides range fro 10-30 miles each and I try to ride 4 -5x per week. The heart rate statistics produce a classic bell curve when I look at it after each ride. I am not training for races, endurance rides, TTs or anything specific, just out riding and enjoying it. I suspect most riders 50 or older experience the same results.
Zone 1 - 5% or less
Zone 2 - 10 - 20%
Zone 3 - 60 - 70%
Zone 4 - 10 - 20%
Zone 5 - 5% or less

caloso

I have a PM and I track all my workouts in Training Peaks, so it's easy for me to get bogged down in data and micromanaging precise wattage targets, but at the end of the day, training is all about stress and recovery. Seems like what you're doing is already a lot like what I was suggesting. And it seems like it is working for you. My only suggestion is to mix things up so you're not doing the same thing every time you get on a bike.

deacon mark

I am just throwing this out that I generally have little belief in zone training. I personally believe one should go more as they feel and listen to the body. I mean really listen and forget all the zones and what they mean. One thing is fairly well proven it that high intensity burst within in easy or normal work out does burn more calories and beneficial. I think one can simply be too scientific about training and not approach it as a lifestyle or you are training for some race or whatever.

The only racing I ever did was in running I don't race on a the bike. When I was in my best shape and prime years running it was all by feel. I could go out and run long or short and easy but I had to listen to the body. I found that training for marathon's I did my best by running a 20 mile long run 3 weeks before the marathon. 2 weeks before I would go out and do a tempo run at near marathon pace for 12-15 miles. Starting slower than the pace and then last 3 miles going right on it.

My point bring this up is that I never had a heart monitor is was almost 30 years ago, and I never had a GPS. I had a running watch and I could tell my pace within seconds. If could go out and run an 8 minute mile an I bet I was not off by 20 feet. All on feel and listen to what was going on. On the bike today I still think that is true in the sense to trying to maximize your benefits. The one thing I agree is cardio work does eat into muscle tissue. I do all cardio mostly and some pushup and hand weights. I don't have a lot of huge strength and if I don't stay on top of it I can go from 12 pushups to only being able to do 6 in a matter or 2 weeks.. Yes that is mean I can only probably muster up 15 perfect pushup I am a weakling.

asgelle

In other words, you only trained one way and it was the best way you ever trained.

deacon mark

No not at all. I trained for the 1989 Chicago Marathon running a total of 6, 20 mile runs every 2 weeks up until the marathon with last 20 mile run 14 days before. While I did fine it was certainly not my best marathon and I never felt all the great. It was too much and I went by the standard book of doing 20 mile training runs at least 4-6 before the marathon.

Same question to be ask in cycling. Is it better for Pro riders to simply pile on mileage and/or do a lot of climbing to prepare? Over time the cyclist should be able to become better at reading the body and knowing intuitively what is correct. Most of the time it is better to come in a bit under trained than over trained. That is very true for running and I think for cycling too. Riding by the book is fine at first but I think the real pros step aside from that a know that to do.....or at least the real successful ones.

RadDog

That much training would kill my upper body size, LL. But yes, this is where I am different from most hard core road guys. I was a bike messenger for 5 years, and even working only part time the amount of riding made me look like a cyclists, not a bodybuilder. Having said that, bikers tend to be much healthier than bodybuilders.

RadDog

I am also 100% low tech. Also, my training was by feel and experience. I was training this way before I ever did any "scientific" training. I was exposed to road guys after 20 years of riding, 5 getting paid and a BMX racing background.

I found the road guys to be the most technical, but ironically found that their recommendations were similar to what I was already doing (short intense bursts followed by easier recovery). In fact, that is exactly how I rode as a messenger, and I was rumored to be very fast (even won the messenger games).

Lemond1985

I find that hanging from my arms for 30 seconds or a minute helps undo some of the cramping in my back and shoulders that builds up from riding, at least for me. It really loosens my shoulders and back up a lot, I highly recommend it.

It seems like my back is much healthier now, and bending up to pick up stuff is much easier. I think it's a good preventative for back problems, but if I wait until I've already thrown out my back, I won't be able to do it, it'll be too painful. YMMV.

RadDog

Here is the thing, and this was all the rage in the fitness community: Low intensity cardio burns more fat relative to energy expenditures and calorie usage. However, my experience is that this is nonsense. Higher intensity cardio burns way, way more overall calories, and more importantly, it stokes your bodies metabolism. You will burn tons of calories long after you finish training.

Having said that, the best method is to implement both: Lower intensity and HIIT. This was something I did for my bodybuilding training totally separate from riding. Ironically, this (alternating hard/easy) is how many of the best riders train because they have learned what works.

That is why I like to compare notes with cyclists.