Oil With Some Tenacity?
#51
verktyg
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W = Winter
A tangent, sorry: W does *not* stand for "weight", even though it was common to refer to grades of oil that way! It's a measure of the oil's ability to flow at cold temperatures ("W" = "winter".) For instance, a 10W30 oil or 80W90 transmission oil has to be able to flow at -25°C or it doesn't get that "W" number. The higher number has to do with its viscosity at hot temperatures, originally 100°C although a 150°C spec was added a few decades ago.
Bicycling-friendly temperatures are somewhere in the middle of those two ratings, so we needn't worry too much about the exact numbers.
Bicycling-friendly temperatures are somewhere in the middle of those two ratings, so we needn't worry too much about the exact numbers.
I retired last year after a 40 year career in manufacturing, engineering, and industrial sales in the metal working industry. For almost 10 years before that I was involved at least monthly with the machine shop at Chevron's Research Facility in Richmond, CA.
One of the labs responsibilities was continually running QC friction tests on their existing lubrication products as well as experiments on new high pressure additives and new types of lubricants. The gold standard was to run 2 hardened rotating small steel wheels or disks against each other under controlled pressure until failure to measure a lubricant's longevity and breakdown characteristics.
Even the folks at the lab referred to "W" as "Weight" when discussing viscosity.
While working my way through school in the 60's and 70's I wrenched on everything from VWs to steel mill machinery (and finally bicycles).
xx Weight was always the vernacular used to specify the viscosity of liquid petroleum based lubricants - from 5W and 10W transmission fluids (ATF) to 120W and heavier gear oils...
It's like Kleenex and other vernacular terms that have become part of the language....
BTW, lubricants used in jet aircraft engines are some of the most challenging applications because they have to withstand extremely high temperatures as well as extremely low temperatures at higher altitudes.
verktyg
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Last edited by verktyg; 05-07-20 at 12:48 PM.
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#52
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Dry Chain Lubes
"If you ever get the chance, try Chain-L, created and sold by a BF member."
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll put that on my list of chain lubes to try. I gather that it's a sticky wet lube? Because of the dry dusty conditions out here in the west, most of the year I have to use a dry or dryish lube.
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll put that on my list of chain lubes to try. I gather that it's a sticky wet lube? Because of the dry dusty conditions out here in the west, most of the year I have to use a dry or dryish lube.
I HATE this:
I don't intentionally ride in the rain and having lived in the southwest before moving to NorCal, I've been using dry chain lubes for over 45 years.
I've tried a lot of different brands. I'd been using White Lightning Clean Ride for a number of years. It drys to a whitish wax and dirt sort of drops off in flakes.
Several years ago, someone suggested Finish Line Dry Bike Lubricant. For chains, it's the best stuff I found so far. Not messy, doesn't pick up dirt and works smoothly. I paint it on my chains and FWs with a cheap acid brush so I don't waste a lot of it like what happens with direct application.
My 2¢ worth.
verktyg
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Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
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#53
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I too like Chainsaw Bar and Chain lube. I bought a quart of Echo 1 from Home Depot, and then load up a 10cc syringe with needle (I have a medical background so have these things). Once a freewheel is cleaned or flushed thoroughly, I try to inject both front and back along the seam lines, usually easy on the front, difficult in the back due to tight tolerances. A syringe needle is beveled so many times you can wedge it in and disperse around the circumference or just at 4 points of the compass and spin. In most cases inject enough to get the pawls to quiet down and if it dribbles out the other side, you have enough. Then set aside and wipe up any excess that comes out. I too like my freewheels to run smoothly and mostly quiet, and so far after 5 years, never had any problems with freewheeling or pawls not activating when needed on Suntour freewheels that I use.
I sure wish that modern freehubs would use something like this or a little thinner, I really hate the whiny clacking of a freehub, hear that all the time and it sounds like the hub is about to explode!!
The SDS sheet that Echo 1 puts out states the oil is:
COMPONENTS Concentration (%) Petroleum distillates,
hydrotreated heavy naphthenic 75‐95%
Residual Oils, hydrotreated (petroleum) 5‐25%
and Viscosity @ 40°C 146cSt (note 40°C = 104°F) and Viscosity @ 100°C 10.3cSt where 100°C is 212 deg. F or the boiling point of water at STP. I'm not sure how hot a freewheel could get at say 30 mph downhill freewheeling but it could certainly heat up some.
Per this chart that works out to 85W-90 Gear oil at normal temps and roughly 80W at 100 deg. C. So for our purposes on a bike 85W-90 unless you're riding in Death Valley in the summer. 50 deg C = 122 deg F.
Phil's Tenacious SDS is here: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/03...US_OIL.pdf?335
States it is 44mm2/S (44cst) at 40 deg. C. Which would work out to only a 75W gear oil so I'm not sure how that squares with verktyg's post #25 about 120W transmission gear oil.
I sure wish that modern freehubs would use something like this or a little thinner, I really hate the whiny clacking of a freehub, hear that all the time and it sounds like the hub is about to explode!!
The SDS sheet that Echo 1 puts out states the oil is:
COMPONENTS Concentration (%) Petroleum distillates,
hydrotreated heavy naphthenic 75‐95%
Residual Oils, hydrotreated (petroleum) 5‐25%
and Viscosity @ 40°C 146cSt (note 40°C = 104°F) and Viscosity @ 100°C 10.3cSt where 100°C is 212 deg. F or the boiling point of water at STP. I'm not sure how hot a freewheel could get at say 30 mph downhill freewheeling but it could certainly heat up some.
Per this chart that works out to 85W-90 Gear oil at normal temps and roughly 80W at 100 deg. C. So for our purposes on a bike 85W-90 unless you're riding in Death Valley in the summer. 50 deg C = 122 deg F.
Phil's Tenacious SDS is here: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/03...US_OIL.pdf?335
States it is 44mm2/S (44cst) at 40 deg. C. Which would work out to only a 75W gear oil so I'm not sure how that squares with verktyg's post #25 about 120W transmission gear oil.
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Last edited by mech986; 05-07-20 at 06:03 AM.
#54
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@mech986, I haven't bothered to observe, but my intuition tells me that coasting down a hill at high speed won't develop much heat in a freewheel. I'd be surprised if it reached 10ºF above ambient temperature.
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Quickly scanned the document and "Hydraulic Oil" was used as a classification.
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+1 for bar&chain oil!
I can't really tell the difference between this stuff and Phil oil. have a theory that Phil just buys bulk stock bar&chain oil and adds green dye.
I have oiled Shimano freehub bodies with bar&chain oil and they work down to the teens of degrees, Fahrenheit, on my daily commute.
I can't really tell the difference between this stuff and Phil oil. have a theory that Phil just buys bulk stock bar&chain oil and adds green dye.
I have oiled Shimano freehub bodies with bar&chain oil and they work down to the teens of degrees, Fahrenheit, on my daily commute.
Last edited by Moe Zhoost; 05-16-20 at 06:10 AM.
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#57
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I emailed privately with Francis, the creator of Chain-L. He used to be active on bikeforums. He won't give the formula away, of course, but he did describe it. If I remember right, it is similar to bar and chain oil but it also has a solvent to make it penetrate small spaces better. The solvent dries up leaving just the oil in the right places. He has some kind of advanced degree and knows what he's doing. He's been a bike person forever so he needs bike stuff to work well just as much as we do.
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I use this non-petroleum base WPL "Whistler Performance Labs" wet lube most of the year: https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5063-5...ain-Lube-120ml
I've tried a bunch and this one has worked out well. I think folks often apply too much lube or apply to a dirty drivetrain and get goop build up. For my sturmey-archer hub gear bikes, I use synthetic 0W-20 in the hub (our car's tipple of choice so I always have some on hand) injected with a little syringe or oil can depending on the type of oil cap. Each hub gear seems happy, though all three hubs - the '53 four-speed, the '50 three-speed dynohub, and Mrs. Ged's '56 three-speed each have unique pawl ticking sounds.
I've tried a bunch and this one has worked out well. I think folks often apply too much lube or apply to a dirty drivetrain and get goop build up. For my sturmey-archer hub gear bikes, I use synthetic 0W-20 in the hub (our car's tipple of choice so I always have some on hand) injected with a little syringe or oil can depending on the type of oil cap. Each hub gear seems happy, though all three hubs - the '53 four-speed, the '50 three-speed dynohub, and Mrs. Ged's '56 three-speed each have unique pawl ticking sounds.
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I emailed privately with Francis, the creator of Chain-L. He used to be active on bikeforums. He won't give the formula away, of course, but he did describe it. If I remember right, it is similar to bar and chain oil but it also has a solvent to make it penetrate small spaces better. The solvent dries up leaving just the oil in the right places. He has some kind of advanced degree and knows what he's doing. He's been a bike person forever so he needs bike stuff to work well just as much as we do.
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The OP's original question was about lubrication for freewheels but I'll chime in my 2¢ worth....
I don't intentionally ride in the rain and having lived in the southwest before moving to NorCal, I've been using dry chain lubes for over 45 years.
I've tried a lot of different brands. I'd been using White Lightning Clean Ride for a number of years. It drys to a whitish wax and dirt sort of drops off in flakes.
Several years ago, someone suggested Finish Line Dry Bike Lubricant. For chains, it's the best stuff I found so far. Not messy, doesn't pick up dirt and works smoothly. I paint it on my chains and FWs with a cheap acid brush so I don't waste a lot of it like what happens with direct application.
My 2¢ worth.
verktyg
I don't intentionally ride in the rain and having lived in the southwest before moving to NorCal, I've been using dry chain lubes for over 45 years.
I've tried a lot of different brands. I'd been using White Lightning Clean Ride for a number of years. It drys to a whitish wax and dirt sort of drops off in flakes.
Several years ago, someone suggested Finish Line Dry Bike Lubricant. For chains, it's the best stuff I found so far. Not messy, doesn't pick up dirt and works smoothly. I paint it on my chains and FWs with a cheap acid brush so I don't waste a lot of it like what happens with direct application.
My 2¢ worth.
verktyg
I do ride in the rain sometimes. Not nearly as much as I used to, mostly just the unexpected rain now.
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#61
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I emailed privately with Francis, the creator of Chain-L. He used to be active on bikeforums. He won't give the formula away, of course, but he did describe it. If I remember right, it is similar to bar and chain oil but it also has a solvent to make it penetrate small spaces better. The solvent dries up leaving just the oil in the right places. He has some kind of advanced degree and knows what he's doing. He's been a bike person forever so he needs bike stuff to work well just as much as we do.
But whatever it has in it, I love the stuff. I rode the 760+ miles of Paris-Brest-Paris (including some rain) on one application, and even rode a bit more on it when I got back home. Any other lube that might have required me to stop and reapply every 100-200 miles would have lost my favor right away!
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The OP's original question was about lubrication for freewheels but I'll chime in my 2¢ worth....
I HATE this:
I don't intentionally ride in the rain and having lived in the southwest before moving to NorCal, I've been using dry chain lubes for over 45 years.
I've tried a lot of different brands. I'd been using White Lightning Clean Ride for a number of years. It drys to a whitish wax and dirt sort of drops off in flakes.
Several years ago, someone suggested Finish Line Dry Bike Lubricant. For chains, it's the best stuff I found so far. Not messy, doesn't pick up dirt and works smoothly. I paint it on my chains and FWs with a cheap acid brush so I don't waste a lot of it like what happens with direct application.
My 2¢ worth.
verktyg
I HATE this:
I don't intentionally ride in the rain and having lived in the southwest before moving to NorCal, I've been using dry chain lubes for over 45 years.
I've tried a lot of different brands. I'd been using White Lightning Clean Ride for a number of years. It drys to a whitish wax and dirt sort of drops off in flakes.
Several years ago, someone suggested Finish Line Dry Bike Lubricant. For chains, it's the best stuff I found so far. Not messy, doesn't pick up dirt and works smoothly. I paint it on my chains and FWs with a cheap acid brush so I don't waste a lot of it like what happens with direct application.
My 2¢ worth.
verktyg
Also this is a chain lube thread now. 😂
#63
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#64
Senior Member
Several years ago, someone suggested Finish Line Dry Bike Lubricant. For chains, it's the best stuff I found so far. Not messy, doesn't pick up dirt and works smoothly. I paint it on my chains and FWs with a cheap acid brush so I don't waste a lot of it like what happens with direct application.
My 2¢ worth.
verktyg
My 2¢ worth.
verktyg
Verktyg whenever you run out you should try the Rock N Roll gold lube for chains. It lubes and cleans at the same time. I've been close to posting it as a separate thread here as a hack. I even used it on a 30 year old Suntour chain and it cleaned right up. Lasts much longer than the white lightening stuff.
Also this is a chain lube thread now. 😂
Also this is a chain lube thread now. 😂
I looked into Finish Line Dry, but I was scared off by the proclamation that it lasts 100 miles. 100 miles! That is pathetic. Fricken Triflow in the 70s would go 1000 no problem. Is this 100 miles just an exaggeration to make people use more of it, or is it true?
I've been using LPS 3 for my Riv 'country bike', figuring it's more or less the same stuff as Boeshield, which has become the spray on wax lube du jour I guess. I find LPS3 works pretty nicely as a dry chain lube. Easy to apply, and lasts way way longer than melted paraffin dip.
The last couple years I have been using Rock N Roll for my road bikes. I like it. It's like an improved version of Tri Flow, more or less. Maybe I like it because of the familiarity.
I used to ride rain or shine in the winter, and switched to Finish Line wet for, I dunno, December through March or so. I don't really anymore the last couple years so I pretty much stick to dry. Anyhow I have tried Finish Line Wet for freewheels and cassette pawls, since i have some. It's OK, but I really do like Phil's a lot better for that. So much quieter.
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I don't know anything about lubes, but when I read sticky oil it reminded me of STP oil additive. Has anyone tried it on bikes?
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Verktyg whenever you run out you should try the Rock N Roll gold lube for chains. It lubes and cleans at the same time. I've been close to posting it as a separate thread here as a hack. I even used it on a 30 year old Suntour chain and it cleaned right up. Lasts much longer than the white lightening stuff.
Also this is a chain lube thread now. 😂
Also this is a chain lube thread now. 😂
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#67
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The ONLY and THE BEST VERSION!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrF_nM9pknU
PLAY VERY LOUD!!!
verktyg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrF_nM9pknU
PLAY VERY LOUD!!!
verktyg
#68
Full Member
From the SDS for Phil's tenacious oil, the viscosity is 41 mm2/s @ 40°C (104°F)
So, it doesn't have high viscosity. It is quite sticky though and this comes from adding tackifers. Same with chainsaw oil.
Key is other additives that are used and that is not known. With a couple of ounces of oil and 25 to 30 dollars one can get an oil analysis done for further info.
So, it doesn't have high viscosity. It is quite sticky though and this comes from adding tackifers. Same with chainsaw oil.
Key is other additives that are used and that is not known. With a couple of ounces of oil and 25 to 30 dollars one can get an oil analysis done for further info.