Fullcount

Seems every time I get a post from RUSA it is about an insurance issue. Today I opened one up and it is about insurance again. Potential solution - having permanents classified as a "group" ride with a leader to eliminate the solo rider from heading out on a ride while under an insurance policy.

I get it. Insurance costs money.

My question is this? Why do we have to have permanents tracked by route owners and paperwork filled out and all that comes about under the window of RUSA in this age of technology. With SPOT personal locators, Gamin and Wahoo devices lasting longer on a battery charge, why can't we do a solo ride and submit a STRAVA trip report to prove that the ride was performed within the time frame? Shucks, you can add photos to your Strava ride with receipts and time stamps. Sounds like it is time that brevet & permanent rides take advantage of modern technology and relieve some of this burden from the route owners and RBA's. Leave the ride list online of the different routes, ride the routes when you can, submit the results electronically to a central email address and let's see if we can streamline this process.

Most of us ride on our own insurance policies anyway. Why burden RUSA with covering these permanents under an umbrella policy, when technology can track these rides automatically. It would make riding a series of populaires and permanents easier as you can do a pop up ride whenever precious time permits. I think an automated reporting mechanism will go a long way in attracting more riders for both sanctioned brevets and that allusive 200K that you need to finish the series.

anotherbrian

I'm not sure that paperwork was the point. While some might have wanted it the old way, that didn't stop electronic proof of passage and being able to make intermediary control points become the start/stop for those who wanted to use it.

unterhausen

"paperwork" being an easy way to refer to all the different forms for proof of passage. I'm a little unhappy about this turn of events. I like designing routes and don't want to become an RBA. OTOH, other events have led to us losing our umbrella insurance and so I always felt a little exposed to liability by letting others ride my routes. I certainly don't control everything that could happen to a rider, but if I'm the designer and the person that gives credit, then I'm definitely going to be on the list of people to sue.

I'm not sure that any method of accounting will be satisfactory for RUSA's insurance carrier. I really enjoy riding perms, but keeping track on strava is probably okay. And mostly I'm trying to train for official events by riding perms anyway, so the fact that they don't contribute to mileage totals isn't that big of a deal.

anotherbrian

After the lawsuit was announced against RUSA and the RBA I gave up any plans for owning permanents and transferred the one I did have to a rider doing a k-hound who was willing to take it.

I'm in NorCal so there are brevets year round, though I haven't been inclined to do an R-12 more than once (which did include permanents during the winter months). I think my main interest is to do unique brevets that will count towards the Scout award, and it'll motivate me to ride with more of the clubs.

unterhausen

A few years ago, I had a bad perm ride in November where the roads froze into a sheet of ice after a very minor rain. Had to make the call of shame, and I resolved never to do an R12 again. I was on R36, I think. I found that traveling to a 200k could be just as hazardous in the winter as riding it. But I did ride a couple of scary 200k's too, which I wasn't particularly happy with myself for doing.

anotherbrian

My R-12 silliness was over a summer that had a month of 100^F++++ weekends, and I had no chance to ride during the week when it was slightly less than 100. On the very last day of the month I went to the start control and got a receipt minutes before midnight then went home and to bed where I planned to wake up by 4am and start the ride , knowing I could finish in 9 hours.

When the alarm went off I decided I was done with the R-12's and went back to bed. I eventually did an R-12 in 2018 and it was uneventful, though one of the rides was a brevet on the very last day of the month so there was some trepidation.

GadgetGirlIL

When I was chasing both an P-12 and R-12, I found myself getting way too obsessed with weather forecasts. While I have attained both awards, weather broke streak at P-15. General burnout ended me at R-17. I want to enjoy riding and not be obsessed with chasing awards. I have enough stress with my job. My recreational activities shouldn't be an additional source of stress.

I am saddened about the potential end of the permanents program as I found it a great way to explore new areas when I was traveling to see friends. Plus a trip out east where I saw two different friends this past spring added 5 new states to my collection as I fit permanents in with my visits.

StephenH

If a perm owner designates the route, that opens them up to some liability- so you need the insurance.
If each rider just goes and "rides around" for a 200k and then submits their Strava record or receipts or whatever- you basically have the UMCA "year rounder" program. Which is fine, but then you need a bunch of volunteers willing to certify all this.
Personally, I liked the existing perm program, but reckon I'll deal with whatever they come up with.

kingston 

As someone who takes personal responsibility for my own decisions and actions, this whole situation is deeply disappointing to me. While I'm sorry for his loss, bankrupting the sport out of existence won't bring his wife back.

A little background from last year for the OP and others who may not have seen it:
https://www.brownsvilleherald.com/ne...9fbf46487.html
The Recent RUSA News; December 100 & 200Ks | Central Florida Randonneurs

atwl77

When I first heard about the lawsuit, my reaction was basically shaking my head thinking "this is why we can't have nice things". I get that the husband is grieving out for blood, but aim those bloody guns at the right people!

rhm

I guess I'll be sorry to see the perm program go. I guess it depends how we, as riders, adapt. If riders know what works best for them, the organization will figure out how to accommodate that. I think it'll be a change for the good, but maybe I'm just an optimist that way.

But I have to admit I'm pretty new to RUSA, and maybe I don't get the culture. i was riding a monthly century on my own for years before I joined RUSA and I've never really taken to the perm program. Haven't submitted any routes, though I've ridden a bunch. I understand the rules, but I'm still utterly mystified by some of what I've seen. But that's a topic for another thread (and one that won't make me popular, so let's skip it).

Steamer

Perm riding will just go underground.

It would be neat if there was a social media type of site that informally made routes and cue sheets available, and provided a place for people to post on such things. Could be a forum type environment. There shouldn't be any real legal risk there. If there is then RWGPS is subject to the same risk.

unterhausen

We can all join the UMCA. I think the problem will be with R12/P12. For someone that lives in areas with a lot of active clubs running brevets, it's generally not a problem to do an R12. But for people outside of such areas, it's going to be a much bigger problem. Earning a P12 is going to be nearly impossible outside of Seattle or Texas. My first R12 was not easy because perms weren't as easily available and I had to skip the June eastern PA 200k due to a conflict with a family outing. Pretty sure I went to Ohio for one of those rides, which was no fun.

rhm

Can an RBA put a brevet on the calendar with a week's notice? I mean, let's say I got three or four riders to agree to do a 200k ride next weekend, we could ask the RBA to put something on the calendar and he could accommodate us? I assume it has to come from a list of approved routes, but I also assume there plenty to choose from, at least in this area. Then, once it's in the calendar, anyone can ride it.

(The NJ RBA has already done something like this, a 200k next Saturday and a populaire (130?) on Sunday; with no support; so that's good. And I think I can do one or both, so that's good too. But he didn't do that's as a request from me.)

kingston 

All the perm routes are posted. People can ride them whenever they want. I've ridden brevet routes by myself many times. What's going away is getting credit for RUSA awards, which I've never cared about, but lots of people do.

Steamer

Cue sheets are posted? Where? Many listings on the RUSA site are without GPS route links.

If RUSA ends the program, the meger info available for many of them won't even be available. And forget about new ones.

kingston 

I overstated the accessibility of the perm routes. All the ones I would ever care about are in our club RWGPS library, but I realize that's not true for every perm. For now you can still contact the perm owner to get the route same as before. You make a good point that it would be nice to have a RWGPS library with all the perms. Before GPS was ubiquitous people needed to maintain cue sheets but not anymore.

rhm

If you know a route exists, and people have ridden it, and you know approximately where it starts and how long it is, the RWGPS search function will find it for you. I suspect Strava could do that as well. With either of those services, if it finds the route, it may have a different name, but you'll figure it out.

Steamer

No doubt there are workarounds for some routes, but I am hoping something develops that more closely mimics the current system of perm route availability, and even allows it to continue growing. It needs to be fully outside of RUSA, of course.

rhm

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly and vociferously!

I fantasize about a database of approved route segments (controle to controle), from which riders could assemble a route of their choice. It could get complicated, though.

anotherbrian

I looked at dozens of perm routes that were in my local region (within ~150mi radius) before I created and had my Free Route approved, and the vast majority were complete duds, being out and backs and constrained by the non-Free Route rules of the time.

Many of the routes might also have been interesting to their creators, but knowing the roads I couldn’t puzzle out why I’d want to ride them (and I’d guess it was mainly the start point being close to the creators home). And looking at the results for the perms, they were usually only ridden by their creator (or in their company).

I think Google, Strava heatmaps, and RWGPS are a far better source for finding good rides in unknown areas.

unterhausen

what I have found is that a lot of route owners are overly obsessed with proof of passage and not allowing any shortcuts. My advise is always to just try to get it approved the way you want and make changes if required for approval. I have only been asked to change one route, and I refused. And in the end, I got my way. I like the challenge of placing my controls so that my preferred route is the shortest route, but that's not always possible. It turns out that you don't really have to do that, routes with significant possible short cuts are allowed, up to 10 percent of the distance between the relevant controls.

At one point I only did free route perms. The problem I had was that there are a couple of roads that I dislike that are shorter than anything else. It's the curse of living in a valley. And I dislike having too many controls. I have one perm that has a nice turnaround point, but when I went to a free-route, I had to take it across a river and go pretty far down the other bank just to keep it so the shortest distance was over 200k. Dropped the idea of making that free route. If you over-constrain it with controls, all of a sudden it's not really free route. What I do is mention variations that people can take if they don't mind not getting credit for the extra distance. Which they wouldn't on a free route anyway. One objection to free routes that I can respect is that the shortest route is probably not the owner's preferred route, and the owner should point riders towards their preferred route. I always provide a cue sheet for my preferred route, and the shortest route cue sheet is available.

I think I saw that RUSA requires a week's notice, and $5 for insurance for each rider. DC is putting on extra rides too, but they didn't have an R12 program. Not sure exactly how their calendar is laid out. They are doing woodbine-dillsburg twice in coming weeks. I'm not particularly fond of that route, but maybe that's because the last time I rode it, a town was holding a Christmas parade and there was tons of traffic due to that

StephenH

I was looking at some brevet routes recently, and they were NOT on RWGPS. Probably, the person created them and set them on "Private" for whatever reasons.
I own a lot of perms. What I find is that a lot of the most prolific riders are also perm owners, and they all like their own perms, so 90% of the time, when one of mine is ridden, it is because I am riding (and hosting) also. And it's a lot less complicated for me to do my own routes.
I've got several free-route perms, but all were free-route to allow us to explore different options in creating a brevet. if I knew the "best" way, I'd just route it that way and skip the free-route.
RUSA has shortened the time to schedule a brevet, but ask your RBA for details, I'm not sure of them myself.
On the 2020 Lone Star Randonneurs calendar, there's around 9,000k if you do the longest option each ride, but I'm trying to do more 200k's and fewer longer rides, so the perm program works better for that. Otherwise, I'll be doing a lot of driving to Houston, Austin, Midland, and Norman to fill out the schedule for K-Hound.
I did see a 4-day brevet series in Nebraska that sounds interesting, not sure if I'll do it or not.
I wouldn't mind working into more touring and less randonneuring, but that runs into some different issues.

unterhausen

I might do more mountain biking now. Which is not a bad thing for my randonneuring, unless I crash and can't ride. Which is always something I'm worried about.

They are saying to keep track of rides, so they are still worrying about this.

I can't imagine hiding my perms on RWGPS. All the good ones are basically hidden among perms I never got approved

smkeesler

Last year was my first year in RUSA and I did a couple of perms to get my feet wet and to learn the process of how this quirky group conducts itself.
As someone just used to going out and riding my bike wherever I want, whenever i want, I found the process a little encumbering and was just as happy to plan my own route, "in the spirit of" a brevet and ride it like it was an official ride without signing away my rights to sue someone when I fall down/get hit.
RUSA is probably a lot of things to people, but for me it is a pretty unique group that I hope/want to be more focused on the "spirit" of the long rides than the "credit" we receive, and I don't value it's ability to protect me from the consequences of accidents at all.