tedlemme

Holy Crap!

So, I just went out and got on the bike to have my wife look at one thing for me, based on a fitting article. She didn't notice the indications that we were looking for, but she DID notice that at the top of my stroke, my knee caps both go way out to the side. Not the knee, just the knee caps. They slide well to the outside. Then I looked back at my video from earlier and saw the same thing. When it looked like my knees were angling outward on the upstroke, it was just the knee cap... my tibia and femur were actually staying in-line with my hip and ankle.

So, that brings me to your quote about VMO: BINGO! I did one quick Google search for it, and the FIRST thing that popped up was your VMO thing. Confirmation by the logic that such a coincidence seems unlikely, since I didn't actually search for "VMO." (I was going to later, as you suggested, just hadn't gotten there yet.)

Looks to me like the strengthening exercises are an "easy" fix. And the bike fit might be okay after all. Maybe still not ideal, but I'd probably never get that with my weird body anyway.

Thanks so much. This could be just what I was fishing around for.

onepusher

I learned something new today, I hope you get the knee pain sorted and can ride pain free. Keep us updated on your progress, thank you for your service.

Prowler 

I hope this does help. But, let me emphasize that I don't know nuttin 'bout medical stuff and only know what has worked for me. As for "easy fix" that may be true too - easy but not quick. It took me all winter and persistence to strengthen the VMO to better work with the other quads. Many weeks I thought to myself "what a waste of time" but then I decided it was like chicken soup - may not help but it couldn't hoit. I'm inherently bull headed so I stuck to it. Much better that spring but not great. Kept at the next winter and better that spring.

I also wore a support strap above that knee while cycling and even while mowing the lawn. That helped too. I think the trick now it to keep my VMOs strong. I never take elevators, always the stairs. That helps the VMOs. FWIW, I'm on my 69th trip around ole Sol. I'm not clipless: all my road bikes have classic toe cages and straps, my mtn bikes have Power Grips. But I don't think it's relevant in my case.

BTW, when doing my PT I worked both knees even though only the left knee was 'talking to me'. Best to gettem both stronger.

JasonD67

A few years ago I was faced with a similar issue: bad knee pain was going to end my riding. The LBS tried to change my bike fit with no success. On my own I switched to high-float pedals (Speedplays). Instantly, the knee pain went away. I've been riding with Speedplays since with no issues. Might want to try some high-float pedals.

TheRabbit

My 2 cents without reading every post...

Start with the bike fit. You get what you pay for. Go to a shop or specialist fitter who uses a Guru, Retul, or similar system to get you in the most comfortable position. Then find a bike with frame geometry to match.

Also look at some basics. I had 3 years of knee pain due to a bike fitter setting me up about 3-4 centimeters too high of where I am today. The best bike fitting advice I can give is to keep everything within your limits and listen to your body.

Conventional bike fitting advice was if your knees hurt, your saddle is too low. For me, it was the opposite. The higher your saddle, the larger the quad recruitment and therefore the larger the knee pain. Ankle / Calf / Achilles pain are also dead giveaways that the saddle is too high. With your long inseam, you may feel that you need the saddle higher than necessary and this is causing the knee pain. I also have a long inseam and felt this way. Look at setback as well. Recent studies are showing that having the saddle too far aft (back) is causing knee pain in cyclists, whereas the opposite was previously believed. Moving the saddle forward has increased my hamstring recruitment and decreased knee pain.

63rickert

Knee pain can be made very complex or it can be real simple. Here's one simple notion.

Pain in front of knee - saddle too forward. Pain in back of knee - saddle too far back.

No, I can't be sure that's your problem. But a lot points to that being possible or even probable. Current fitting systems, I don't even want to critique current systems. I learned fit from a guy who was winning pro races 95 years ago, who learned from his father who was winning pro 125 years ago. So yeah, this is not what you will get elsewhere and defenders of status quo can flame this all they like.

Normal humans will never have leg length above 50% of body height. Those who even come close will be gendered female. You are way past 3 standard deviations into outlier territory. So here's the outlier plan. You want to sit way behind the pedals. Way behind. Doing this with a setback seatpost, if you could find one with enough setback, will make the bike handle odd. So you want a bike with a very very shallow seat angle. Fortunately this is available and available cheap and available common.
Get the bike and test the theory. If my idea works then you know what the next bike should look like. If I'm wrong you lost nothing. The test bike has a ready market, sell it for what you paid.

Get yourself a Schwinn. A Chicago built Schwinn from 50s or 60s, maybe early 70s. A Spitfire or Typhoon or Jaguar. You might even decide you like those bikes.

63rickert

This is an interesting one so read and re-read the whole thread. VMO gets used on bikes, racers have big outsize VMO. Kneecap popping loose? No. Never heard of such a thing. If that were me it would be noted instantly and corrected, whatever it took.

Am noting mentions of military service and of doing squats. Riding bike is low impact. Nothing is supposed to hurt. Do not push past pain when riding bike. 45 minute rides were mentioned. That's a warmup. It is also thousands of repetitions. If you were at the gym and someone saw you doing squats wrong they would tell you. And you wouldn't expect to survive thousands of reps doing it wrong. At the gym they know how a squat should be done and they sorta know what the limits of weak or bad style are. On bike there are as many experts as there are riders and they do everything and anything and rationalize it past all limits. And then do another 10,000 or 10,000,000 reps on bike and expect it to just work.

All fit systems are supposed to conclude by selling you something. Fitters who admit to being puzzled and not selling you a thing are the ones you want. When they go to the no-sale position they are in complete defiance of the system. Try stuff. Try lots of stuff. Try stuff that can't be had for money (or that old Schwinn where the money goes to private party for something real).

Every real cycling coach I've ever known did it all for free. Money came from other parts of the life. Coaching is free. Any who take money for cycling coaching, don't trust them. Same should apply to fitting but it's turned into standard practice and is unavoidable, mostly.

Sitting a lot too low isn't going to hurt a thing until long past 45 minutes. Sitting even a hair too high is an instant source of a great many problems.

There's another good thread up just now.
https://www.bikeforums.net/general-c...rand-prix.html
That rider has owned a lot of bikes. Lots of bikes for lots of years. He's also impossibly modest. The guy has beat Greg Lemond. He knows bikes. He's serious about liking the old Raleigh. I took it for a short ride and it's darn good, doesn't quite fit me like it fits him. The point is the good bike is not the one that costs a fortune or the one built of unobtainium. They are not all the same. They are different. There's one that will work for you. You'll know it when you get on it. Might have to try a lot of bikes before you get there. Do not persist with anything that hurts.

zjrog

From a retired Navy guy, thanks for your service!

OK, knee pain. Have you seen an orthopedic for knee pain yet? Perhaps, physical therapy? I'm having a fit later this week, through an orthopedic center and their physical therapy group. Not the same, I expect, as a fitting in a shop. I'm going to address ankle issues (possibly needing ankle fusion...) and one failing knee. The other knee was replaced 9 years ago, with excellent results. And I've had a back fusion, T7 to T12. So the fitting is more geared for my function with injury/issues. It doesn't hurt that it should be covered by my insurance, as it is doctor prescribed... That might be an avenue to consider.

tomato coupe

Why would a cycling coach or bike fitter work for free?

63rickert

Possibly because they had not been indoctrinated in theories of economic determinism.

Because they wanted to. Because they liked the sport. Because talent is where talent is and the guy with the wad of cash likely has no talent at all and is a pain in the rear to work with.

In a better world your question does not exist. The world where it does exist is grimy and small.

tomato coupe

Do you expect everyone in the world to work for free, or just those two professions?

63rickert

Professions? Bike fitter is a profession now? Like being a doctor or a lawyer?

Neither of the two avocations mentioned was ever a job or considered work until quite recently. The better question is how did the function turn into paying work? And why would anyone believe that paying money for these functions meant your money was being exchanged for anything real?

"It cost a lot so it must be good." What you are expressing is a religious belief in economics. There's a sucker born every minute.

tomato coupe

Good trolling. I'll give you a B-.

Rajflyboy

how about riding with Flats ? Might not be ideal for road riding but at least you may be able to ride.

63rickert

Neither you nor I would be doing this if we weren't being paid for it. Darn, my check is late again. Hope you get paid more than I do.