calamarichris

I had an appointment with a knee-surgeon, (and I quit running, which I also really loved), because I had chronic knee pain. I followed the usual fitment guidelines (from coaches, from books, and Dutch teammates), and generally felt comfortable on the bike. But my appointment with the knee surgeon was two months out.
So I made an appointment with Nate Loyal up in Santa Monica (I believe he moved north because the LA traffic sucked.) He spent three hours watching me pedal, pointing lasers at my knees, asking me questions, and making miniscule (like 1/4 centimeter or even smaller) adjustments to my saddle and cleats.

It became almost tedious for me: three hours of get on the bike, get off, make adjustment, get on, get off, make adjustment, and re-point the lasers again.

I felt like an utter tool paying him $280 walking out of the bike shop with my measurements written on a small card after driving all the way to Santa Monica traffic. Especially when he only shifted my saddle a half centimeter up and another half forward, and my cleats even less. I drove home through the traffic, feeling dejected and exploited.

I resumed riding and waiting for my appointment with the knee-surgeon. But after a week of increasingly long & hard rides, my chronic knee pain vanished!
I cancelled my appointment with the knee surgeon, and my FTP jumped another 8 Watts.

Consider a 60-mile ride, averaging 20mph
~3 hours x 90 rpm = 16,200 reps
If your measurements are off by just a few millimeters, you're very like doing soft-tissue damage. I also felt like less of a tool when I considered that the knee-surgery very likely would have been 100 times what that pro-fit with Nate Loyal cost.

Carbonfiberboy 

Did you get fit advice here?

My guess is that it was the cleats. Do your toes point in a slightly different direction now? That's the usual fix for your chondromalacia, very common.

calamarichris

My main point is: hire a professional to observe you pedaling, rather than trust the generalized advice of well-meaning internet strangers.
Both cleats were shifted back about 2-2.5mms, but there's no question my seat was too far back. The first time I went out riding after the visit with Nate, I noticed my knee-pain side felt a little off. He did rotate it maybe 1-3 degrees. But how can a well-meaning internet advisor catch something so tiny like this without watching you closely, personally with lasers pointed at your kneecaps while you pedal? No human body is completely symmetrical.

Didn't want to make my original post too long, but he also had an interesting device that measured my leg-strength imbalance, and if I was pedaling in circles, or like a Parkinson's-afflicted newbie triathlete. He recommended some strengthening exercises in both cases that made my wattage climb and climb the more I worked at it (having strong hip-flexor muscles can really reduce the weakest point of our pedal stroke [the top 10 degrees] and smoothify your pedal stroke). Minor muscle groups FTW.

At the finish line of the next two l'Etape du Californias (at the Mount Baldy summit), I looked like a bulldog at a greyhound convention. Seriously, I was the most line-backer guy up there, and the skinnies kept pouring in. AND the only steel frame both times.

Iride01 

I think most of us would agree that a fitter or any other person that can see you on the bike in person will stand a better chance of getting your issue solved. Even pic's and video's don't provide as much info as simply seeing in person.

But some don't want to spend money on a fitter, just like they don't want to spend money on a bike shop mechanic.

calamarichris

That's true, everyone's different. But if you're going to be riding several hundred miles per week, and either racing or riding sub-5-hour centuries, I think it's pennywise and pound-foolish not to. I wish they'd had pro-fitters when I was much younger. A pro-fit is a much better investment than sew-ups or the latest Oakley sunglasses.

Iride01 

You don't think there were fitters BITD? If your BITD was before the internet as mine is, they were there. But harder to find since we didn't have Google.

I find that a lot of the stuff I use to do was pennywise and pound-foolish. But that's the way it is when one is young and not as wealthy with both cash and wisdom as when they get up in age.

I think I fit myself to my bikes pretty well. I've experimented with changing things up on all of them. And I've been on all sizes of bike, many way too large for me. Only now I'm toying with the idea of going to a fitter just to see what they come up with that might be better. Not because I really need better.

But I don't disagree with you that a good fitter seeing someone in person can more likely solve a persons issues better than we can here.

Kontact 

Of course an actual fit is better than trying to turn disparate forum advice into a precise fit. Especially when much of the advice offered here is a little flaky. But that misses the point:

Basic fit principles, correctly applied, work very well for most riders. Having your saddle in approximately the right location, having your cleats close and able to float will prevent many of the kinds of injuries that you ended up with. For less dedicated riders or those that aren't prone to injury, simple fit principles are more immediately effective than saving up and waiting for a pro.

The flip side is that fitting is not a science. Anyone can pay to get Retul certified and shine lasers on your knees. Fitting is not a medical procedure performed by medical professionals. Which is why - if you have something like a knee problem - it is important to get recommendations for a fitter that has the level of expertise that you found with Nate Loyal. For those in southern Wisconsin or Chicago, I'd highly recommend Colin O'Brien. I worked with Colin and he is one of the people that invented fitting as we know it. And then I have seen plenty of fitters that don't have the depth to fix a bad knee, and could possibly make it worse.

calamarichris

Everyone has their opinions on getting a proper fit. Which is another reason I believe it's important to get a certified-professional's (or at least a very reputable, like your guy Colin's) perspective. Nate Loyal mentioned that he either studied or had a degree in Exercise Physiology or some related field. There were times I could tell he was dumbing-down his explanations and advice. He wasn't trying to impress; he was being patient with me.

But my life-changing session with Nate only cost $280. We're willing to spend a thousand (or ten-thousand) dollars on a bicycle, but skimp on the fit? My saddle and cleats were within a few millimeters, but I was still having chronic knee pain riding around on basic fit principles, correctly applied.

I'm not paid by anyone, nor have any friends in the industry, but I believe a few hundred dollars spent on a pro-fit are a better investment than the latest carbon wheels or a derailleur upgrade.

Kontact 

I think there are a lot of bicycle riders - even serious ones - that don't buy $300 sunglasses or $5000 framesets. So my advice is not just to those who spend Kia money on their bikes. And, as I said, it isn't just the cost of the fit, it is actually getting what you should out of it. There are more bad fitters than good ones, but they all charge about the same.

calamarichris

True, true. I tried two bad fitters who said I "looked good about there" (and they both strongly recommended (tried to sell me) the super-float lollipop pedals [which Nate smirked at and said that's the lazy fitter's fallback.]) The most expensive bike I own cost about $2700 to build up (and I overpaid because I love the old Italian guy at the shop.) I said reputable and if possible, certified pro-fitter, not the most expensive.
I was also impressed when Nate finished, he said if there were any problems, to bring it back and we can start over without charge.

Kontact 

Some (most) need pedal float. A few need precise limits on their foot. Different solutions for different anatomies.

Iride01 

Sort of reminds me of when I was chastised for suggesting in the mechanics forum that people take their bike to a LBS mechanic if they didn't have the tools or experience to DIY their bikes.

However it'd seem silly to make a person believe that they must get a bike fit for their bike regardless of how cheap or pricey their bike.

Notice that we seem to agree with you that a fit in person with a good fitter is the better way to go. Particularly for those with issues or those that just don't really understand how their bodies work and relate that to moving something on the bike. We just don't think it a mandatory requirement.

Applying your logic, no one should DIY their own bike.

calamarichris

True, but Shimano Dura-Ace pedals and cleats (I believe) have 5 degrees in either direction. And judging from the wear-marks, I might be using some of it. Either that or the wear marks are from twisting out at stoplights. How many degrees do the lollipop pedals have?

Kontact 

Shimano has three floats depending on the color cleat you buy.

Current lollipops have adjustable float ranges where you set the right and left limits independently. I wouldn't dismiss them so quickly.

calamarichris

And I did. I'm glad we are in accord. Agreement on the internet is so rare these days, my eyes are welling up with tears.

Kontact 

I'm sorry, that was a typo. They have entirely adjustable float ranges, from 0 to whatever in any direction. That can be a great tool for someone trying to get their needs met. So I wouldn't dismiss them - they can do things no other pedal system can.

calamarichris

Haha--sorry for exploiting your typo. I grew up with the original Look ski-bindings (though Shimano has out-Looked Look since IMO) and have just never liked the cleats on those things. Or the lollipops. Or the price. Or the fact that the two less-good pro-fitters I visited pushed so hard to sell them to me. And the smirk on Nate Loyal's face when I told him about this.
But if you like them, vaya con dios, amigo!

Kontact 

I don't like them. But I know how they work and too much float isn't a reason to avoid them.

Carbonfiberboy 

Was the knee pain on the inside or outside of the knee? Absolutely pushing forward more strongly at the top of the stroke can fix muscular imbalances which result in chrondo - as long as one's feet are rotated correctly w/r to centerline. I agree that strong hip flexors are a good thing, but the top 10° is more about the VL and VM muscles as we see here:

Note that in the diagram those two muscles are shown as equally strong, but sometimes they aren't and that pulls the kneecap askew, resulting in knee pain on the side which is stronger. This diagram shows pretty much the exact muscle firing points which I experience during the pedal stroke. The hip flexors are not shown, too bad, but they fill in the gap between the SM/BF and the RF firings.

As Kontact has been pointing out, float is a good thing because it allows one to position one's foot angle w/r for fore and aft according to their needs to emphasize the firing of particular muscles. Some riders do go with no-float cleats, but those systems can either create or solve problems.

Moving your saddle height and position had nothing to do with it. 10 minutes should have fixed your problem. That said, if you're more comfortable now that's a good thing. Over the decades, I've moved my saddle and adjusted its angle . . . wild guess, a zillion times, mostly looking for sitting duration, power, and comfort in that order. As one's muscles vary in strength over time, so might one's position vary to take advantage of same.

Leisesturm

At least the o.p. admits fitters vary in their ability to deliver satisfaction. It's a wash in the end. I just made a smallish adjustment to my fore-aft seating position that appears to have solved an ongoing annoying knee pain. For free!!! Not just free, but also without the cost(s) of transport (lodging, meals, etc.) to Southern Cali to meet with Nate, I mean, why would I want anyone else to handle my precious fit. I hope Nate has a fallback career ready because I predict huge adjustments in the disposable income of the Middle Class in the near future. Many of us will be lucky if we can stay housed.

Leisesturm

Oh, I almost forgot. Some months (maybe it was a year) ago I outlined (for free) fitting advice worth $300 to any BF'er that cared to listen. I won't repeat it here, suffice it to say that (IMO) the o.p. title is false. My fit advice stacks up to anything a pro-fitter can offer and doesn't require you to leave home or spend money. As such, it is better than a pro-fit. FWIW.

Kontact 

I recently received an envelope of coupons also worth over $300 in discounts. However those coupons are no more a replacement for a fit then any amount of detached advice.

Viich

I'm certainly not willing to spend $1000 on a bicycle. I have a bunch of them for different kinds of riding, I admit. And a fit would only be useful for one of those kinds of riding.

If you're having issues that you can't fix from basic changes, yea, go to someone. But most people either never have pain or can fix it with small adjustments themselves.

Anything is a better investment than the latest carbon wheels or a derailleur upgrade, including taking a few hours off work to train.

oldbobcat

I like the crack about the "Parkinson's-afflicted newbie triathlete." That's the way I pedaled when I started out in 1970. That was long before triathlons. After a 90-mile ride it wrecked my right knee so bad I thought I'd never ride over 20 miles again. Training with a racing club got me on track to fixing it.

Back in the day there were no bike fitters. The owner of the shop eyeballed you as you walked in the door, and then your more experienced mates helped you sort out your saddle and handlebar. And when you bought new shoes, you jammed your feet into the toe clips and rode around without cleats for ten or twenty miles and brought them back to the shop where the owner nailed the cleat with the slot about 2mm forward of where the pedal made a line. It all worked for most of us.

calamarichris

Things weren't much more evolved in the Lemond era. We dropped hundreds of dollars on sew-ups and the latest Oakley sunglasses, but even if we'd had pro-fitters available, we'd probably've scoffed at the idea of giving one of them a couple hundred dollars for something that would've benefited us so greattly. I should've known something was up when my knees hurt less on rides (like GMR-Baldy) where I pedaled more while standing.