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Chain Reaction Cycles and Shimano

Old 12-22-18, 02:56 PM
  #101  
CliffordK
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
It would be a great business. As far as I understand I should be ok as of now as I just don't sell enough volume into any other state other than my own and I collect sales tax in this state. I wish that service companies/credit card processors we use now owuld just charge the sales tax, hold it and then pay it anyway. Would make my life immensely easier.

I agree on the municipalities being the ones that need to inform the centers. Right now there is no standard. Even within the same zip code you could have many different tax rates depending on what it is and exactly where it is going. It is not just hard but simply impossible for a small business to navigate that. It is an un-reasonable burden. Keeping up with all of the different rates from municipality to municipality across all 50 states, and then make the appropriate payments to the appropriate taxing authorities for each little place at the correct filing date for each place using the payment system they require....its a joke. No one can do it unless it is their full time job and they sell the service or they are a huge company with the resources.

I have been hearing of services that do it and I am sure there will be a ton of them in the future.
Perhaps what we really need is say a 7.5% national sales tax to be kicked back to the local governments. And, then outlaw all other sales taxes (other than say gas, alcohol, cigs, etc). Tax food or not, whatever you want, but regulate it at the national level.
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Old 12-22-18, 03:40 PM
  #102  
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Such a service would never be without a charge. That was what the merchants meant about more overhead. WIth a sales tax service, the merchant would then have to consider the impacts of the service fee, the CC swipe fee or PayPal fee, shipping costs, etc. That would mean the merchant would need to either factors all that into the selling price and/or itemize them or add them on. Included in pricing is more popular as what you see is what you pay, versus a long striung of add-ons. All of these add-ons will have the effect of winnowing the market in favor of larger operations that do not offer the personalized services now offered by some smaller vendors and/or the LBS. Given the size and clout of Amazon itself, and especially Amazon Web Services, I do not see effective competition.

I have ALWAYS been charged sales tax on Amazon. I always assumed that ANY presence by a business in your state mandated the business charge you at the point of sale. Moot point since now we have part of the Amazon HQ.

National sales tax? Uh, NO! If I were in Delaware I would definitely NOT be happy!

Last edited by Bill in VA; 12-22-18 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 12-22-18, 04:23 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by Bill in VA View Post
Such a service would never be without a charge. That was what the merchants meant about more overhead. WIth a sales tax service, the merchant would then have to consider the impacts of the service fee, the CC swipe fee or PayPal fee, shipping costs, etc.
Create the service. Then if the municipality wishes to capture taxes, they should be able to pay a handling fee.

I live in a no sales tax state, and I don't believe there are any reciprocity agreements on sales taxes. Why should there be?

So, adding a sales tax on top of nothing would be a significant burden for those involved.

Note the LOTTERY TAX is a huge boom for the small businesses. The local businesses are given a huge chunk of the lottery revenue.

Nonetheless, any company could move hundreds of millions, or billions of dollars could make decent wages for a limited size business even with taking a tiny percent of the money moved.

Move $1 Billion, and 0.1% is $1 Million. $10 Billion --> $10 Million. Not a huge amount, but enough to fund a small staff.
Originally Posted by Bill in VA View Post
National sales tax? Uh, NO! If I were in Delaware I would definitely NOT be happy!
The Oregon government has been trying to implement a sales tax for eons, but it hasn't been well received by the people.

It would probably take a constitutional amendment to create a national sales tax for local revenue generation. But, then 2/3 of the states would have to ratify it, and the rest would accept it, presumably by adjusting income and property taxes.

The other option I was thinking was a national online sales tax. So, one treats online purchases differently than local purchases. Again, governments would get the option of accepting it or not.

If one has a unified tax, and attributes the amount to an individual, then that individual could get a refund for any surplus tax, or be charged for any deficit.

International business becomes a problem. A company like Ribble/Wiggle/Chain Reaction/etc do thousands or millions of tiny sales. But, it all adds up to big bucks.

Capturing international sales would be tricky, and I don't think I'd want to mess with the little guy that tears down and parts out a half dozen vintage bikes a year, or is simply cleaning their garage onto E-Bay.

On the other hand, any company doing $1 Million + annual sales to the USA should be capturing tariffs, sales taxes, etc. that is, if the infrastructure was in place to actually collect it.

Europe apparently has somewhat of a unified VAT tax which helps them across borders, but that doesn't apply to us.

Could one force a company to comply?

Sure, the USA does it all the time. All commerce requires a transfer of money. Shut down the money, and one shuts down the business.
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Old 12-22-18, 05:25 PM
  #104  
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I realize that this thread has been wandering. But, I feel we are exploring some of the issues confronting mixing micro businesses, internet businesses, "brick and mortar" businesses, international businesses, taxes, and etc.

I can see the raw power of Chinese businesses undercutting the competition. Just bought a pack of 10 stainless bolts for $1.02 including shipping. I'm not sure any US retailer can come close to that, even with in-store purchases. I'm not sure that USPS would even ship them... maybe if they fit under the first class dimensions, but that would be touch and go. Ok, so I bought a multi-pack, but still.

No doubt some of the big British companies have a high enough revenue stream that they can cut margins significantly. So, while a groupset may sit on the shelf in a US store for years (hopefully they at least stock it, then sell and replace parts as needed), they fly off of the shelves at the UK businesses (I think).

And, of course, there is the policy of wholesalers giving volume discounts. A bit of icing for the big businesses, but it makes it hard on the little guys. An advantage to the wholesalers, of course, is they may spend less on sales, handling, and management, and pass that savings on to the businesses.

Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
As for DT - they won't talk unless you're buying at least 5,000 spokes per length or spending $4k or $5k minimum order. I don't even bother with them. They rely on Q. "Get a Q account" they say.
I thought I'd bring this back. Again, the issue was that I got ZERO response from DT. No saying... come back with $5K and we'll talk... just nothing.

I'm not sure what "Q" is. I tried contacting a regional wholesaler in Portland that carried multiple brands, but got shut down.

I would have followed up with DT more, but I was getting shut down by Shimano which was a core component of my plans, and the hardest to work around.

I haven't contacted Sapim, but they are also worth talking to.

I did talk briefly to Pillar, and they may be an option, although I don't know much about their spokes.

What I really want is a product that I can stand behind 100%.

DT, of course, not only sells spokes, but also nipples, rims, and even hubs, so I could imagine hitting $5K, especially if I wasn't restricted from direct reselling.

One thing that a few people do use stock a spoke threader. I believe Sapim sells unthreaded blanks, probably in 1/2 dozen lengths for each style. So, one could buy say 1000 blanks in the most useful lengths, then cut and thread as needed, thus reducing the stock needed considerably. Also helping with prototyping, or adapting to changes such as component changes. Hate to think what would happen when one stocked 5000 spokes of one length, the the rim manufacturer changed the ERD.
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Old 12-22-18, 05:46 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I'm not sure what "Q" is. I tried contacting a regional wholesaler in Portland that carried multiple brands, but got shut down.
"Q" Is Quality Bicycle Products. Great company.
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Old 12-22-18, 05:52 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by JonathanGennick View Post
I have zero issue with this. Manufactures, distributers, retail outlets, and even end consumers are all allowed to do what they decide is best. As it should be. Everything will work it's way out.
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Old 12-22-18, 07:53 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
"Q" Is Quality Bicycle Products. Great company.
Isn't "Q" one of the few large middleman companies taking their own significant markup that makes the LBS pricing outta whack with elsewhere?
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Old 12-22-18, 08:23 PM
  #108  
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Is there any talk of Shimano moving production to factories in the U.S.?
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Old 12-23-18, 12:52 AM
  #109  
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Framebuilders have been complaining about this cost model for a long time. The amount they can charge for a custom frame pays them the same, at best, as a retail store manager, without benefits. If they could sell a complete bike with decent margins, they could make more.
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Old 12-23-18, 03:23 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
I don't know about US, I buy most of my stuff stateside because of how cheap it is.

In Canada the price is seriously jacked up by chain supply. The company facilitating parts brought into Canada cause the problem here.
I am also in Canada but I don't buy in the States anymore.
Usually I buy from PBK. Prices are much cheaper and shipping is free and faster.
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Old 12-24-18, 01:23 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by Wileyone View Post
I am also in Canada but I don't buy in the States anymore.
Usually I buy from PBK. Prices are much cheaper and shipping is free and faster.
Also in Canada, I was grieving over the demise of Shimano from Chain Reaction. So I looked at PBK, and wow: good selection and pricing. Excellent recommendation.

Questions: does PBK ship using Canada Post?

Or a courier, with the associated risk of in-transit damage, missing parcels (employee theft), and random extortionist tacked-on fees? I only accept parcels shipped by USPS/Canada Post.
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Old 12-24-18, 01:52 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Also in Canada, I was grieving over the demise of Shimano from Chain Reaction. So I looked at PBK, and wow: good selection and pricing. Excellent recommendation.

Questions: does PBK ship using Canada Post?

Or a courier, with the associated risk of in-transit damage, missing parcels (employee theft), and random extortionist tacked-on fees? I only accept parcels shipped by USPS/Canada Post.
They ship Royal Post to Canada Post. Usually takes 1-2 Weeks.
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Old 12-24-18, 05:44 PM
  #113  
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Chain Reaction Cycles and Shimano

Here in Australia we cannot obtain Sram stuff from CRC etc.
Ditto for Ortlieb panniers.
I was looking for a part for my elderly Silca track pump. Silca is now an American owned and based company and although I found the item on their website when it came to delivery addresses Australia was greyed out. I managed to get it from an Australian based on line shopfortunately at a reasonable price.

Mike
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Old 12-24-18, 10:50 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Also in Canada, I was grieving over the demise of Shimano from Chain Reaction. So I looked at PBK, and wow: good selection and pricing. Excellent recommendation.

Questions: does PBK ship using Canada Post?

Or a courier, with the associated risk of in-transit damage, missing parcels (employee theft), and random extortionist tacked-on fees? I only accept parcels shipped by USPS/Canada Post.
If Shimano isn't going to let Chain Reaction ship to North America, why would they let PBK?

The courier companies like to charge huge amounts for customs brokerage. Canada Post charges $10 -it used be $5- I've been charged $40 for brokerage on a $200 item by a courier.

Last edited by skookum; 12-24-18 at 11:06 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 12-26-18, 04:12 PM
  #115  
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I for one will be sorry if CRC is permanently enjoined from selling Shimano components. I have purchased a number of Shimano items from them this year for a re-build of an older bike.

In my case buying from CRC did not and will not affect LBS sales. None of my local shops sell complete groupsets, or individual mid to high-range parts. The usual response to an inquiry is: "no, we don't have that, but we can order it for you...". Good news, I can order it for me, on my phone, while I'm standing here talking to you! And I'm an old guy...

If I had discussed my projects with an LBS they would have dissuaded an upgraded in lieu of an entire new bike. I probably would have bought nothing until the old components actually broke. The net result is a sales loss to Shimano, but no retail LBS sales.

The Wayfair decision will be far more important (and crushing) to start-up and/or small business than this group seems to think it will be. I am only aware of two software companies that handle multi-state sales tax well. Alavara is the vendor I am most familiar with. I spoke to a fellow CPA that is assisting a small internet business (seven employees) to setup for multi-state sales tax with Alavara. The basic software license was $4,900. Invested so far: $50K. Projected additional costs to go live: another $20K. This is only the start. If you get over the hurdle to collect the correct sales tax, remit the correct tax and file the correct sales tax reports, then more fun awaits. Namely, your books are subject to audit by all of those taxing entities. It gets better: now that you are paying sales tax in our state, why aren't you paying us any income tax? The mind boggles!
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Old 12-26-18, 04:37 PM
  #116  
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a specialized taxing system kinda resembles the union service.


businesses that make new & innovative parts don't often put thought into obsolescence. When they do, they tend to sub it out to back a warranty or until the next cool thing is mainstream.
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Old 12-26-18, 07:28 PM
  #117  
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"Perhaps what we really need is say a 7.5% national sales tax to be kicked back to the local governments. And, then outlaw all other sales taxes (other than say gas, alcohol, cigs, etc). Tax food or not, whatever you want, but regulate it at the national level. "

Hmmm, it was done with Obamacare, so I suppose the legal fights against it will lose in the high court. The states are unlikely to give up control of their sales tax, so I see the national sales tax existing alongside the state sales tax. Good thing I will be long gone to that velodrome in the sky by the time something like this is shoved down the citizen's throats.
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Old 12-27-18, 12:12 PM
  #118  
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A flat 10% tax on mail order would really help the LBS. It would bring business back to the U.S.A., away from foreign giants like Chain Reaction -and others- that pay no US tax and employ no American people.
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Old 12-27-18, 01:04 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by skookum View Post
If Shimano isn't going to let Chain Reaction ship to North America, why would they let PBK?
Right. Thanks for the ProBike Kit recommendation. I assume that the long reach of Shimano will extend to all online sales.

So I'm taking no chances, and yesterday I ordered several years worth of Shimano chains from PBK, in the event that the borders clamp down January 1.

I have access to shop (wholesale) pricing. I look at the domestic (Canadian) online catalogues, and don't know whether to laugh or cry; these prices average about 50% higher than anyone with a cell phone and a PayPal account can import from the UK. And enjoy free shipping.

Even if you never shop online, there is going to be a general increase in the price of components. Why?... because with grey market sales stifled, our local distribution channels can simply charge more. Less competition and decreased price pressures. Eventually, even the prices of used components and bikes will increase.
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Old 12-27-18, 01:34 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
A flat 10% tax on mail order would really help the LBS. It would bring business back to the U.S.A., away from foreign giants like Chain Reaction -and others- that pay no US tax and employ no American people.
Why should I care about helping subsidizing an outdated business model?
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Old 12-27-18, 01:58 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Right. Thanks for the ProBike Kit recommendation. I assume that the long reach of Shimano will extend to all online sales.

So I'm taking no chances, and yesterday I ordered several years worth of Shimano chains from PBK, in the event that the borders clamp down January 1.

I have access to shop (wholesale) pricing. I look at the domestic (Canadian) online catalogues, and don't know whether to laugh or cry; these prices average about 50% higher than anyone with a cell phone and a PayPal account can import from the UK. And enjoy free shipping.

Even if you never shop online, there is going to be a general increase in the price of components. Why?... because with grey market sales stifled, our local distribution channels can simply charge more. Less competition and decreased price pressures. Eventually, even the prices of used components and bikes will increase.
As usual, Canadians end up paying more than anyone else for almost everything. I would agree, order stuff you think you will need from UK suppliers while you still can.
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Old 07-29-19, 03:39 AM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by ridelikeaturtle View Post
This wouldn't have anything to do with the dotard's "trade war" tariffs, would it?
Absolutely nothing, the differences in price went back well into the Obama administration. Itís best to leave personal politics out of the equation.
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Old 07-29-19, 03:55 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by cs1 View Post
Absolutely nothing, the differences in price went back well into the Obama administration. Itís best to leave personal politics out of the equation.
I'll make it about whatever the hell I want - and if there has been changing tariff legislation since 2016, then it's about the current US administration's boneheaded tax policies.

Bicycle Retailer's Stephen Frothingham broke the story that US President Donald Trump approved tariffs on another $200 billion dollars worth of Chinese imports. Tariffs take effect this coming Monday, September 27, beginning at ten percent and increasing to 25 percent January 1, 2019. Bicycles and components make up half of the affected goods - a billion dollars worth of imports - much of which has already been paid for, but is still traveling on container ships, headed for bike brands that will now have to cough up ten percent more cash to US Customs before they can receive their goods.
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Old 07-29-19, 04:39 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by ridelikeaturtle View Post
I'll make it about whatever the hell I want - and if there has been changing tariff legislation since 2016, then it's about the current US administration's boneheaded tax policies.
Another triggered ❄️
How cute.
I assume that you are trying to get a zombie thread locked?
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Old 07-29-19, 06:01 AM
  #125  
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I noticed that CRC doesn't even show products that can't be shipped to the US anymore, which is kind of nice to not have to look at products you can't actually buy.

On a related note, I bought some LX hubs from a German retailer earlier this summer, but that seems to be shut down now, and a few weeks ago I bought some ultegra hubs on ebay that had this disclaimer:
This is an OE item.
This item will not come with a retail box. This was originally packaged in case quantities for OE use. Please see item description for inclusions.
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