How much do you care about bike weight?
#101
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
I'm not claiming the latter, just that aside from racing or following specific training regimens.. iow, just grabbing a bike and going out on a course, dragging the heavier bike thru that course is likely more effort. Take your example of that solo ride you chose to do.. comfort aside, if instead you had grabbed your lighter bike, and (if you're familiar with Strava?), would you expect to have seen a lower, same, or higher resulting "Relative Effort" score versus having chosen your heavier bike?
Likes For WhyFi:
#102
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,632
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4731 Post(s)
Liked 1,531 Times
in
1,002 Posts
Your only explanation tried to bring in some variable about how people's efforts vary on different days, or how intensity varies by the distance someone rides. That's a given but it's not what's being discussed. Take the example in front of you and answer the question.. if Riveting had grabbed his lighter bike instead on that day and done that solo ride he referenced, are you saying it would have been the exact same effort? It's a yes/no question.
#103
South Carolina Ed
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Greer, SC
Posts: 3,889
Bikes: Holdsworth custom, Macario Pro, Ciocc San Cristobal, Viner Nemo, Cyfac Le Mythique, Giant TCR, Tommasso Mondial, Cyfac Etoile
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 344 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times
in
138 Posts
Your only explanation tried to bring in some variable about how people's efforts vary on different days, or how intensity varies by the distance someone rides. That's a given but it's not what's being discussed. Take the example in front of you and answer the question.. if Riveting had grabbed his lighter bike instead on that day and done that solo ride he referenced, are you saying it would have been the exact same effort? It's a yes/no question.
#104
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posts: 1,221
Bikes: '13 Diamondback Hybrid Commuter, '17 Spec Roubaix Di2, '17 Spec Camber 29'er, '19 CDale Topstone Gravel
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 590 Post(s)
Liked 445 Times
in
260 Posts
I'm not claiming the latter, just that aside from racing or following specific training regimens.. iow, just grabbing a bike and going out on a course, dragging the heavier bike thru that course is likely more effort. Take your example of that solo ride you chose to do.. comfort aside, if instead you had grabbed your lighter bike, and (if you're familiar with Strava?), would you expect to have seen a lower, same, or higher resulting "Relative Effort" score versus having chosen your heavier bike?
Assuming my power output to the top of a mountain is equal on any bike I ride (and why wouldn't it be?), I would assume that the lighter bike would make the ride up a little bit faster and therefore shorter in duration, making the Relative Effort less on a lighter bike. Which adds to the hypothesis that lighter bikes are for those that want less of a workout, and/or want to ride less? Yes, that's sarcastic trolling.
Last edited by Riveting; 09-21-20 at 02:28 PM.
#105
Senior Member
Why wouldn't it be? Because the highest average power that can be maintained is a function of time, decreasing as the duration of the effort gets longer. So a faster bike would allow a higher average power.
Likes For asgelle:
#106
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
It's not a yes/no question - it's a matter or putting in what you want to put in or are capable of putting in. If I'm absolutely gassed when I get to the top of a hill on a 17lb bike, putting in the same power on a 20lb bike is going to leave me short of the summit... so what happens in that moment? Do I bang my head against that wall and fall over? Do I magically tap in to energy reserves that I didn't know I had and power on? Or does my predicament dawn on me before that, at which point I lower my effort so that I can still limp to the top?
#107
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posts: 1,221
Bikes: '13 Diamondback Hybrid Commuter, '17 Spec Roubaix Di2, '17 Spec Camber 29'er, '19 CDale Topstone Gravel
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 590 Post(s)
Liked 445 Times
in
260 Posts
Good point. So if the lighter bike allows for a better avg power, and the heavier bike causes a longer ride and therefore a lower avg power due to fatigue, which bike would burn more calories overall, for the same climb? Is it the shorter ride with slightly higher avg power, or the longer ride with slightly lower avg power?
#108
Senior Member
Clarification - the difference will depend on the P/D curve. The faster ride will always burn more calories.
Last edited by asgelle; 09-21-20 at 05:13 PM.
Likes For asgelle:
#109
serious cyclist
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 21,147
Bikes: S1, R2, P2
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9334 Post(s)
Liked 3,679 Times
in
2,026 Posts
Your only explanation tried to bring in some variable about how people's efforts vary on different days, or how intensity varies by the distance someone rides. That's a given but it's not what's being discussed. Take the example in front of you and answer the question.. if Riveting had grabbed his lighter bike instead on that day and done that solo ride he referenced, are you saying it would have been the exact same effort? It's a yes/no question.
#110
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,632
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4731 Post(s)
Liked 1,531 Times
in
1,002 Posts
Then you don't know what's being discussed.
It's not a yes/no question - it's a matter or putting in what you want to put in or are capable of putting in. If I'm absolutely gassed when I get to the top of a hill on a 17lb bike, putting in the same power on a 20lb bike is going to leave me short of the summit... so what happens in that moment? Do I bang my head against that wall and fall over? Do I magically tap in to energy reserves that I didn't know I had and power on? Or does my predicament dawn on me before that, at which point I lower my effort so that I can still limp to the top?
It's not a yes/no question - it's a matter or putting in what you want to put in or are capable of putting in. If I'm absolutely gassed when I get to the top of a hill on a 17lb bike, putting in the same power on a 20lb bike is going to leave me short of the summit... so what happens in that moment? Do I bang my head against that wall and fall over? Do I magically tap in to energy reserves that I didn't know I had and power on? Or does my predicament dawn on me before that, at which point I lower my effort so that I can still limp to the top?
I really don't understand why the such absolute "you're wrong" take on this whole thing.
Likes For Sy Reene:
#111
serious cyclist
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 21,147
Bikes: S1, R2, P2
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9334 Post(s)
Liked 3,679 Times
in
2,026 Posts
It is a yes/no, as we're supposing Riveting was in the same frame of mind before the ride he rode -- pretend he was blindfolded and chose the bike. So your argument is that road cyclists everywhere, grab a bike to go out on their ride, and their intent is to finish at a level of complete exhaustion or comatose? Strava's proxy for effort is a combo of heart rate and time spent at those heart rates. If a rider's endurance zone HR is eg. 160 and they run that for 2 hours on a light bike, but the same course takes them 2 hours and 5 minutes on a heavier bike to complete, which was the better workout?
I really don't understand why the such absolute "you're wrong" take on this whole thing.
I really don't understand why the such absolute "you're wrong" take on this whole thing.
#112
Newbie
I'm a casaul/fitness rider. Last year I took a bike to Burning Man, and brought home 10 more. One was a 1990 Diamond Back, chromo dubble butted frame. I also volunteer at a Bicycle Kitchen and so have access to lots of old parts. So I completely rebuilt the thing, taking special interest in light weight stuff. I even took parts to my drill press (Seat clamp, quick releases, etc... I got it down to 26lbs and was quite proud of myself. But then it absolutely killed me to add a cable lock, pump, and seat pack tool kit. So was it a waste of time? In one sense it was. It was a fun project and still makes me feel good to show it off and ride it.
So if you have the money, and a lighter bike makes you feel good, I say go for it.
So if you have the money, and a lighter bike makes you feel good, I say go for it.
#113
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,632
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4731 Post(s)
Liked 1,531 Times
in
1,002 Posts
Let's try a new topic. 2 bikes that weigh the same, one with flat tires, one with air in them. Which will provide a better workout over a 50 mile course?
Likes For Sy Reene:
#114
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
It is a yes/no, as we're supposing Riveting was in the same frame of mind before the ride he rode -- pretend he was blindfolded and chose the bike. So your argument is that road cyclists everywhere, grab a bike to go out on their ride, and their intent is to finish at a level of complete exhaustion or comatose?
Strava's proxy for effort is a combo of heart rate and time spent at those heart rates. If a rider's endurance zone HR is eg. 160 and they run that for 2 hours on a light bike, but the same course takes them 2 hours and 5 minutes on a heavier bike to complete, which was the better workout?
Likes For WhyFi:
#115
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,632
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4731 Post(s)
Liked 1,531 Times
in
1,002 Posts
No, but you didn't seem to understand the more nuanced approach previously.
And this is where the disconnect is. The contention that being discussed is "you get a better workout with a heavier bike." If you're riding a 20lb bike and you want a better workout, you simply. go. faster. If you're riding a 17lb bike and you want a better workout, you simply. go. faster. The difference in energy required for the 3lb swing in bike weight will quickly and easily be swallowed by wind resistance.
And this is where the disconnect is. The contention that being discussed is "you get a better workout with a heavier bike." If you're riding a 20lb bike and you want a better workout, you simply. go. faster. If you're riding a 17lb bike and you want a better workout, you simply. go. faster. The difference in energy required for the 3lb swing in bike weight will quickly and easily be swallowed by wind resistance.
#116
serious cyclist
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 21,147
Bikes: S1, R2, P2
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9334 Post(s)
Liked 3,679 Times
in
2,026 Posts
No, you're wrong. I'm just supposing, that unlike yourself, some riders' goals when they go for a ride are different than yours -- which apparently is to have the highest Total Suffer Score in a specific amount of allotted time.
Let's try a new topic. 2 bikes that weigh the same, one with flat tires, one with air in them. Which will provide a better workout over a 50 mile course?
Let's try a new topic. 2 bikes that weigh the same, one with flat tires, one with air in them. Which will provide a better workout over a 50 mile course?
Let's try a new topic: 2 bikes that weigh five pounds different. Which will provide a better workout over a two hour session?
#117
Senior Member
You dont want to be too lite. I heard below 16 lbs and you start floating into the air, hence why the TdF limits the weight of your bike to that.
#118
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
Ahh.. so that's the disconnect.. I'm using the term "workout" generically/colloquially. As in any ride is some sort of a workout since by default you're getting some exercise. And you're coming from standpoint of a workout implying that there be a specific desired goal or set of goals.
#119
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,632
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4731 Post(s)
Liked 1,531 Times
in
1,002 Posts
[QUOTE=Bah Humbug;21706199]No, you're wrong. I'm just supposing, that unlike yourself, some riders' goals when they go for a ride are different than yours -/QUOTE]
Good.. so we agree.. there aren't any absolutes.. and to tell everybody that they're "wrong" is just flat-out wrong.
Good.. so we agree.. there aren't any absolutes.. and to tell everybody that they're "wrong" is just flat-out wrong.
#120
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,528
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3886 Post(s)
Liked 1,938 Times
in
1,383 Posts
I'll do a reductio. In 2016 my wife and I rode a 154 mile 9500' course in 11:30. on our tandem. The next year, I rode the same course on my single in 9:47. My wife's watts/kilo is a little more than half mine. My hrTSS score was almost the same for both rides.
Why? Because the longer ride sapped my power and thus HR. One only has so many kj to give to the cause or IOW if one is an experienced rider, when one can go faster, one can go harder. Or not of course, but I was riding for time on both rides.
Obviously this relationship would not hold true for shorter rides, where the tandem produces a higher hrTSS for me, about 10 extra hrTSS per 20 miles because it's slower than my single in our local somewhat hilly terrain. On the flat, the two bikes move at about the same speed for the same effort because our lower stoker power is made up for by the increased aero, tandems having about 1.5 X drag of a single bike..Of course on the descents we rule, down on our aero bars. These figures are only approximations, but the idea is solid.
Why? Because the longer ride sapped my power and thus HR. One only has so many kj to give to the cause or IOW if one is an experienced rider, when one can go faster, one can go harder. Or not of course, but I was riding for time on both rides.
Obviously this relationship would not hold true for shorter rides, where the tandem produces a higher hrTSS for me, about 10 extra hrTSS per 20 miles because it's slower than my single in our local somewhat hilly terrain. On the flat, the two bikes move at about the same speed for the same effort because our lower stoker power is made up for by the increased aero, tandems having about 1.5 X drag of a single bike..Of course on the descents we rule, down on our aero bars. These figures are only approximations, but the idea is solid.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#121
serious cyclist
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 21,147
Bikes: S1, R2, P2
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9334 Post(s)
Liked 3,679 Times
in
2,026 Posts
#122
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,632
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4731 Post(s)
Liked 1,531 Times
in
1,002 Posts
#123
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 2,799
Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1088 Post(s)
Liked 1,022 Times
in
722 Posts
It is a yes/no, as we're supposing Riveting was in the same frame of mind before the ride he rode -- pretend he was blindfolded and chose the bike. So your argument is that road cyclists everywhere, grab a bike to go out on their ride, and their intent is to finish at a level of complete exhaustion or comatose? Strava's proxy for effort is a combo of heart rate and time spent at those heart rates. If a rider's endurance zone HR is eg. 160 and they run that for 2 hours on a light bike, but the same course takes them 2 hours and 5 minutes on a heavier bike to complete, which was the better workout?
I really don't understand why the such absolute "you're wrong" take on this whole thing.
I really don't understand why the such absolute "you're wrong" take on this whole thing.
No, you're wrong. I'm just supposing, that unlike yourself, some riders' goals when they go for a ride are different than yours -- which apparently is to have the highest Total Suffer Score in a specific amount of allotted time.
Let's try a new topic. 2 bikes that weigh the same, one with flat tires, one with air in them. Which will provide a better workout over a 50 mile course?
Let's try a new topic. 2 bikes that weigh the same, one with flat tires, one with air in them. Which will provide a better workout over a 50 mile course?
#124
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Redmond, WA & Bangkok, Thailand
Posts: 565
Bikes: 1999 Giant ATX MTB, 2002 Lemond Zurich, 2018 Fuji Transonic 2.3, 2019 Specialized Tarmac Disc Expert
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 170 Post(s)
Liked 391 Times
in
226 Posts
As the original poster has stated both bikes are disc brakes, same components, very close in price they are literally the same. I would do an in store weighing of each bike without pedals. All things being equal I'd probably take the lighter bike.
If you want to make the bike faster, drop 5kgs. To make it even faster drop 10kgs!
If you want to make the bike faster, drop 5kgs. To make it even faster drop 10kgs!
#125
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
How did we decide that burning more calories is what a better workout means?