biker7

I expected a bit more from you Wurm but then again, I don't know you that well. If you knew anything about me...I only ride steel. 1 lb in a 20 pound bike is 5% or quite a bit. Last time I looked there weren't a lot of steel bikes in the TDF...must have been marketing.
George

sydney

Then why would you want to muck up good steel with CF as you mention in another post?

ViperZ

I have seen a lot of Steel bikes with Carbon forks.


If marketing didn't get to most of us, we would all be riding generic no name bikes that mostly looked the same. We all are bit to some certainly level or another.

biker7

Because Wurm is a sucker for good marketing.

George

fogrider

come on guys, there is no perfit material for everyone...some people need something stiffer, some need lighter...and on and on. I have a full steel bike...how many of you guys still ride a steel frame with a steel fork. but I also have a full carbon bike... oddly the full carbon bike has a ti steerer tube and steel stem. I also have a scandium with cf rear...and its still harsh on my butt. I would consider a steel bike with cf rear...but it has to be light!

travis200

I like my Lemond Maillot Jaune (steel/carbon) it is a little stiffer then my old all steel Zurich so that is a plus. My only beef is the weight penalty with steel but since I am so hard on frames I need a little extra material.

Personally I like the ride of the steel/carbon. I used to ride a Giant TCR carbon and it was harsher then the Lemond for sure. I still liked the feel of the all carbon but for say longer rides the steel helps ease some of the small vibrations normally felt through the all carbon. I would say you get the best of both worlds with a steel/carbon bike. You get the stiffness of the carbon with the flex and feel of the steel.

Wurm

The fact is, the UCI weight limit for any bike in the GT's is 14.96 lbs. You go under that (re: the Fassa C'dales of a couple years ago), you add weights to the frame until you comply, or you don't race that bike. So, I suppose it wouldn't matter what material it is, if it can be made lighter than 14.96 lbs. it's pretty much useless to the pro peloton weight-wise.

If that UCI weight limit happened to be 17-18 lbs., I'm willing to bet real folding money that you'd see plenty of steel rigs in the GTs.

sydney

Well, the later Zurichs were stiffer than the originals,so it depends on which one you had. Not all CF may ride the same as the Giant. One has to be careful of comparing apples to watermellons and sweeping generalizations.

Lucky07

I like the steel frame/carbon fork combo. I've heard steel w. cf fork & seat stays is a plush ride. Personally I'd feel that an all carbon or mostly carbon bike is one I'd have to baby. Carbon in my opinion, mis not as durable as alum/steel/ti. I also don't think I could afford an all/mostly carbon bike.

Moonshot

If you do this people who buy these bikes will likely choose between you and Lemond and maybe one or two others.

You mention that this bike would have some aesthetic cutouts and that would weigh in your favor. However, I'd guess that you'll lose a lot of business to Lemond and their "spine" bikes. Probably too much business for this idea to be viable.

Wurm

Because even an otherwise great riding steel bike can be a bit much on the back end, and CF stays help to soften the blows on some frames.

Look at Litespeed and the curved seat stays on their all-Ti frames, and Cannondale using the hourglass seat stays on their all-Al frames...that's compliance - the dreaded "flex" that some of you bytch so much about - engineered into the frame.

Why? Because without it, those frames would be considered by many to be too harsh. If you've ever ridden a CAAD3 frame for any distance over 5 miles on a less than perfect surface, you'd know what "harsh" can be.

timwat

Okay, so this is the manufacturer:

https://www.maxway.com.tw/cgi-bin/com...profile_lst.pl

Their e-catalog:

https://ecatalog.manufacturers.com.tw...5712001&bhcp=1

And here is the product description:



Model : Y4R05

Frame Type: Racing
Material: MAXWAY HEAT TREATED
CR-MO and Carbon Fiber Combining the
qualities of cr-mo and carbon fiber. Laser-cut lug design.��Amazing��says it
all.

Enquiring minds and all...

sydney

Check Supergo.com

sydney

Right on bro...the marketing guys have sold it to ya. Had a caad3,and have a caad4 with the magic stays.You can have em both. How much of this stuff have you actually ridden??

submergedbiker

Lot’s of good input here from guys with a lot of experience…now for me. First, I applaud your desire to do this. Not many of us have the drive (read “nads”) to even consider it although we do dream about it. Second, I have three angles on answering your question: engineering, MBA, and cyclist (the three quarters of my brain that still function).

Engineering. You really haven’t put enough information out for me to answer your basic question, “Would you buy this bike?” I need to know specs and the reasons for your material choices. What’s your angle? Does this material combo provide greater stiffness, agility, ride quality, weight, or a combination of them all? How will you fuse the materials? What type of carbon will be employed? I do have some problems with seeing what I fear are extra joints at the top-tube and the seat tube – why not just the rear triangle and one of the other tubes? What will your dropouts be like (flexible, rotating, stiff…)? Will your fork be steel (now that’ll be a niche market)? Give me some more specifics please.

MBA. Leading from the above, what’s your intended market? There are those who will want this just b/c it is different. Some will want it b/c they hate Al but love steel but hate the cost of a light steel bike. Others may go for your geometry. Still others just like the small fish in the big pond. I don’t think that all of these “markets” together will put much food on the table unless you can produce a good frame at a good price and then get the word out. I recommend looking for others who have tried to do exactly what you are doing (Jack Kane for example “The Bicycle Shop” in Jacksonville, NC). He’s into Al and carbon, but the marketing and construction and small fish ideas are all the same. His angle is good quality, stunning graphics, customer service, experience, and no holds barred component groups/accessories.

Cyclist. It’s all about the feel I get when I look at my bikes just sitting against the wall and then again when I’m out rolling on them. For me, the bike needs to call me to ride it. I need to be jealous when I’m doing anything but pedaling those machines on the road. I need to have to think hard about which bike to take out for a spin. I like horizontal geometry (saddle, top-tube (no compacts), stem, and drops), everything must look like its always moving forward. I like classic looks (lugs – you have at least addressed this, chromed rear triangles – a carbon rear might be the “new” version of this, thin tubes, slack seat tubes, campy style brakes/shifters, etc.). Just dropping a frame in front of me is not enough. Your frame is nice, but it doesn’t call me. As for the ride, I suggest putting out what you think your combination will do for me (and who is the “me” you’re looking for – road warrior, racer, touring cyclist, etc.) That will give me a better idea of what I’ll feel like riding it.

Again, it’s about looks and feel, especially if you want to beat the marketing giants. I’m not going to see your bike in the TdF any time soon and you probably don’t have a few hundred thousand dollars laying around for marketing, so you’ll have to make up for that. Looks and Feel. Good luck! Maybe someday I’ll call you about my ideas to ask you how you made it!

BTW, I ride a steel circa 96 Bianchi Champion del Mundo/Campy 8sp and an Al/carbon Jack Kane/DA 10sp. You can say that I’m a traditional conformist or that I just like what works for me. Make your bike work for “me” and it will work for you.

Starclimber

Careful examination of that picture suggests your putative frame name is 'Maxway'. Yeah. 'Max-weigh'. Either you are just 'having us on' for some fun, or you need to rethink that aspect of 'design'. Maybe 'PhotonFast' would have more cachet.... 'LegStrong', perhaps? or just 'LeStrong'. What the heck, call it 'LeProfesseur', only 8 seconds slower than a 'LeMond'...

Full apology in advance if I'm just being stupid. Sorry.

Edit: I see I was beaten to the button. So, Maxway is real, eh. Still say the name needs work.

biker7

And if cows could fly then TDF bikes would all be gold plated. Per your comment then TDF bikes should be steel and still hit the 15 lb weight bogie...wonder why that isn't the case....gee.
George

Wurm

FYI genius, I owned an R1000 CAAD3 some years ago for about as long as it took to geek it on eBay. Furthermore, I work full-time at an LBS that happens to sell and service C'dales, amongst other makes, and I've seen most every kind of road bike that is within a 50-mile radius of here come through the shop. I've ridden or owned many, MANY more bikes than you've even seen pictures of on the internet.

Wurm

You missed the point, but guess what? I'm not going to bother to explain it further...

dragonflybikes

fmw, Your point 1 is the main purpose of this whole thread. I do not want to start production on a bike and then find out that no one else would actually like it. In the initial part of getting the word out on a new bike, since as many have pointed out, I am not a big company with tons of marketing dollars, it will be when myself or someone who bought my bike is riding and others see the bike and ask questions. If the other person riding doesn't think that it is a cool bike they are not going to ask questions, and after hearing the materials that it is made out of they still aren't interested then they probably won't care how it rides. Thank you though for your input.

sunninho

It's an interesting design choice that departs from the lugged or blended designs other mfrs use. But to me, it's just not that attractive. In fact, it kind of reminds me of the spots on a dairy cow. I don't intend to be mean, just MHO. I'd recommend a redesign of the steel cutouts or color change.

fmw

I guess you missed my point. What is the reason for mixing steel and CF in a bicycle frame? I see the image. I don't understand the purpose. I might be interested if I understood a benefit. You haven't done step 1 yet. You need to find out what people want, not show them what you have and wonder if people think it is cool. Best of luck. I'm a small business entrepreneur myself and I always root for others engaged in the same thing.

dragonflybikes

Yes the pic was of a Maxway which is a manufaturer oversees. I did not go and have a prototype made just to take a pic to see if there was even a market out there. Also yes I do know that there are a couple of manufacturers that make steel/carbon bikes, I did my research too. However I do not count the Cologno's and other $2-3000 bike frames as my competition. If someone is going to spend that much money on a bike they are not going to spend it on a bike brand that is new to the market. If you remove the $2-3000 bike frames from the list then that leaves you with Jamis and Lemond that you may find in the bike shops, and atleast where I am from you do not find many of them in bike shops. If you find a Lemond it is Ti/carbon.

As far as all of those posts about "marketing people must have gotten to you" that is also part of the reason for this post. Marketing seems to have told everyone that they want a bike that is either all carbon or Aluminum with carbon stays, as it seems like 90%+ of all bikes in bike shops are one of those. (this is excluding the lower end bikes as in bikes that wouldn't even have 105 on it). There is also the "steel is real" group out there that are stead fast in steel bikes are the best thing. They have refused to be swayed by any of the marketing people. Marketing has different angles. There is the part where you convince everyone that what you have is best. This is something that is left to large companies with the deep pockets and the endorsments. Then there is the marketing or reminding people that there is something better out there than the mass advertised product that is forced upon them. However in order to make that successful you have to make sure that your off the beaten path product is something that they actually do want. For the second part if people are visually drawn to the bike they may never even ask about it, second if once they ask about it they aren't interested because they don't think that it could be any good then you probably won't get them to believe without a lot of work. These first two parts are what this whole thread is about. There are also a number of people who want a bike that looks cool so that when they look at it they smile. Of course with all of that if it doesn't ride well it still won't be sucessfull.

By the way for those who asked my target rider is those who race and those who are club riders as well as all those who want a nice looking bike that is different from all the others in the pack. As far as pricing goes, at least during the first year or two or more, while the name and word gets out, the price would be bargain pricing.

Thank you everyone for you input. This has definantly given me insight. Please feel free to contiue to keep posting with your thoughts as I will continue to read.

dragonflybikes

fmw, I think you missed my point but I believe it is because you are allready beyond the first point and want to get more details. You are wanting details, but you first must have been interested enought in the design and the possabilities of the concept to inquire more. Many of the people out there immediatly say that why would I want to do that and go no further. While in a session like this I can easilly put that information out there the main marketing will be by riders riding the bike and when they are riding if the other rider doesn't ask the questions you are asking they will just go along with what they believe and then the makreting to that person is dead. People will ask what the metal it is, and if they think it is lame they won't say it they will just be polite and say oh. Most of the riders riding the bike won't go and then on their own give it an explaination unless probed by someone like you. If more people kept an open mind like you have and want to know why should I use that new idea?, is it actually better?, then there wouldn't be so many products that are not as good but are sold in mass because of the marketing by the companies, while the better product sits on the shelves and is then discontinued.

By the way, my intent on the steel/carbon mix is to keep the livelyness of the steel when sprinting and other out of the sadle hammering, but to also minimize the road vibration.

Thanks again

biker7

You can’t explain it further because you have no foundation for your premise. It is you that missed the point. It started with your ridiculous assertion below. Strength to weight of CF versus steel isn’t even close. If you don’t understand why a CF frame can be made much stiffer and lighter than steel with equivalent vibration damping…then you are right…there is no need for further discussion. If you have a 4 lb steel frame and you take 1 lb out of it…or reduce its weight by 25% due to the superior yield strength of CF and make it stiffer…then that is a significant performance difference to a racer.


As to marketing guys getting to me…another silly (being nice) comment. I am a product development engineer and design using these materials every day…why you and I don’t have a lot to talk about. The marketing guys ask me how to embellish the truth…not the other way around.