kc9eog

I am sure high gas prices are on every board, but I really don't want to lose this time, so could anyone here help me work on these people? I feel like the argument I am making is exactly correct and that this really is a matter of Black and White, as opposed to most controversies which are shaded gray. So, any help?



https://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard....;f=17;t=155236

maddyfish

You ask how did kids get anywhere before the Suburban, well my Mom had a Ford station wagon back in the 70's, it had a 400, got about 5 mpg, and polluted like crazy. It was my first car.

There are people who legitimately need larger, high occupancy vehicles. My wife for example, during the day she drives to work alone, but 3 out of 5 weeknights, and on saturdays, all the seats are usually full of soccer teams, softball teams, and so forth. What would you have us do, buy another car to commute to work? It is easy to sit back and say most SUV/vans are unneeded, when it is YOU that does not need one.

EnigManiac

Could it not be that MOST SUV's and vans are not needed, but yours is?

davidmcowan

I get a sense that those are the kind of sentiments that won't change easily.

There are a great deal of people that will change before change is necessary. There are others, perhaps your friends on that board, that won't change until someone is holding a gun to their head. Citizens for Global Warming? What a bunch of dumbsh1ts!

I-Like-To-Bike

More likely is that individuals decide for themselves what is needed for themselves, rather than allow uninformed strangers to smugly determine what are their Real needs.

kc9eog

Fair enough, the market will decide. When gas prices are truly high people will stop just complaining and acutally change their behavior. I just hope our economy doesn't go into the absolute crapper as a result.

chevy42083

It may be black and white... to someone who's mind is already made up and uninformed.

maddyfish

They said the same thing at $1.50 a gallon and at $2.00 a gallon, and at $3.00 a gallon.

maddyfish

Most of the vans/Suv I see are loaded with kids/work equipment and such. Sure if you only watch a parking lot where you work, you'll see alot of one passenger vans/suvs, but most people don't take their kids to work, or runs their lawnscape, or roofing, or home improvement buisness from the parking lot of your work. Go to a soccer field on a weekend, or a softball field on a week night, or anywhere that manual work is being done, and you'll see heavily loaded, heavily used vans/suvs.

thimblescratch

I almost always see SUVs with just one person in there, and they are usually commuting to work or going to the store. There are also a lot of Hummers around here, and only twice have I seen it with more than one person in it (1 driver, 1 passenger). And believe me, I look, because they are usually passing me on my bike.
And why would someone argue that a parking lot at WORK where you spend the majority of your waking hours is not a good indicator of who is driving these vehicles?
The *real* soccer moms have VANS, because they seat the 8 kids. And trucks are everywhere, but few people are hauling anything.
I live in the midwest though, maybe it's different in your neck of the woods. But here, people buy the big vehicles because they are cool, or whatever. MANY MANY MANY of them don't do it for utility's sake.

Maddyfish, I'm sure some people do much of their hauling and carpooling on the weekends. But why they choose to commute in this utility vehicle everywhere else (the majority of travel for many), is because ? For the price of a shiny new big truck, one can get a nice sedan for commuting and an older truck for hauling, instead of having his and hers F250's. I do know that many families have SUV's and vans to travel/sports/hauling in and that is one thing. But all of these SUV's and trucks on the road with one passenger is something else entirely.

OP, it was a nice post you had. These people will never shift their paradigm from a forum entry. But planting the seeds of change may pay off in the future, so hats off to you!

makeinu

Why not simply combine soccer practice with cycle training?

thimblescratch

In this society it is difficult for anyone to decipher NEEDS from WANTS. I think some 'uninformed strangers' are just trying to differentiate between the two.

davidmcowan

A sedan with a hitch also makes for good hauling. Hauling is just another of the reasons why someone CAN'T let go of their precious truck. Like I said, one day people will be forced to make these adaptations but it may be too late.

I-Like-To-Bike

More like the uninformed strangers are tying to decide, without information, if other people's NEEDS match their own, and if the answer is no, then the NEEDS become unnecessary WANTS.

thimblescratch

I would never claim that someone, for example driving an SUV, is doing it as a WANT simply because I don't think it's a NEED for myself. It will require introspection from the SUV driver, to determine what is a need or not. But what I would suggest is that many WANTS masquerade as NEEDS in today's society especially.
And furthermore, which NEED is greater? For example the need for everyone to breathe clean air, or the need to get your kids to soccer practice? If they all have asthma soccer practice will basically suck.

chevy42083

You're right, let's live in bubbles.

thimblescratch

We do, it's called THE EARTH and we all have to share it.

Roody

But the tone of the conversation there illustrates why it's going to take strong measures to get people driving less, and diving more efficient vehicles. Like maybe CAFE laws, higher taxes or gas rationing. It's our job to start convincing the people that these laws are needed and "for your own good." So it isn't really a waste of time to keep on talking on that forum, kc9eoq. Maybe somebody will actually think about what you're saying.

Off topic, I don't get why ham radio people have an internet forum. Can't they talk to each other on the radio?

thimblescratch

Sometimes their ham radios break, and they have to find someone to trade a steak radio for it. The internet is good for that.

Roody

A pretty simplistic opinion here. You should realize that whether they're needs or wants, the behavior of one person usually has some effect on his/her neighbors. At some point others have the right (duty, even) to step in and point out the destructiveness of a neighbor's behavior. If the neighbor doesn't understand, or doesn't want to change, then we have the option of trying to get laws passed to force better behavior.

Another aspect is that "needs" are shaped by the environment one lives in. As some of the people in the other forum said, they need a private motor vehicle because they live in an area that doesn't have public transit. IOW, their environment is lacking in one need, forcing them to turn to another need. If they're concerned about their forced dependence on gasoline, they should try to get public transit in their area. At the very least, they should try to use the most efficient vehicle, and avoid unnecessary trips with it.

Roody

I just hope their ham radios are organic and locally grown.

I-Like-To-Bike

OK. But it is those individuals' decision to make about what is a necessary trip and what is the most efficient and/or practical means of accomplishment given the resources/priorities at hand (including time, weather, comfort levels, etc.) Not a decision to be made by someone who has read a book/article somewhere or taken Soc 101 and decides he/she knows what is best for everyone else.

Wogster

For a cyclist, you can have a MTB for trail riding, a road or touring bike for those longer trips, a commuter bike for those short, in town trips, maybe rigged up for some serious hauling with a trailer. Maybe you have spent $3,000 for the whole setup (including the trailer). Your annual maintenance cost, is maybe $400, for all of them, so the incentives of low cost, and low maintenance costs, mean that specialization is easy. Heck for an extra $2500 throw in a Honda Jazz for those times you want to go a little further or are feeling too tired to try and tackle the hill-from-hell on 4th Street..... Maybe add an extra $500 a year for maintenance on the Honda, and the rare gas purchase..... So maybe you spend $900 a year on maintenance, the average motorist is spending more then that on insurance alone.... I wonder how a Jazz would do in snow**********?

For motorists, vehicles are much more expensive, maintenance, insurance, etc. mean that most people are limited to a single vehicle. So they must get the most utiliitarian vehicle they can afford. Car companies have incentives to go larger, leasing is one, financing is out to 72 months, yes that is six years of slavery for a motor vehicle. The bright side is that you can buy a $30,000 one instead of a $25,000 one, for only $100 a month more, and join the wannabe rich You never do know, maybe the guy with the SUV needs to haul a drum kit, or a double bass around, drives the kids to soccer practise, and several people to church on Sunday...... They can't afford multiple vehicles like cyclists can......

What I find interesting is that some people are using bicycles for some trips and small motorcycles for others....

Artkansas 

[QUOTE=kc9eog]I am sure high gas prices are on every board, but I really don't want to lose this time, so could anyone here help me work on these people? I feel like the argument I am making is exactly correct and that this really is a matter of Black and White, as opposed to most controversies which are shaded gray. So, any help?


The fellow's mind is made up. He's not going to buy your arguments.

You are being logical. DOH! You are arguing against him. How do you make your point emotionally, sympathising with him?

AverageCommuter

Don't bother. Even if people weren't already hardwired to rationalize every selfish decision they make, there are billions of dollars spent every year on the most skillfully crafted propaganda ever, the sole purpose of which is to convince them that their lives are meaningless and empty and they can only find happiness by buying more crap. It's called marketing. Some people actually believe that it only informs people of how they may satisfy their wants rather than creating want.


Sure.