Need help talking with another board!
#1
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Need help talking with another board!
I am sure high gas prices are on every board, but I really don't want to lose this time, so could anyone here help me work on these people? I feel like the argument I am making is exactly correct and that this really is a matter of Black and White, as opposed to most controversies which are shaded gray. So, any help?
https://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard....;f=17;t=155236
https://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard....;f=17;t=155236
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You ask how did kids get anywhere before the Suburban, well my Mom had a Ford station wagon back in the 70's, it had a 400, got about 5 mpg, and polluted like crazy. It was my first car.
There are people who legitimately need larger, high occupancy vehicles. My wife for example, during the day she drives to work alone, but 3 out of 5 weeknights, and on saturdays, all the seats are usually full of soccer teams, softball teams, and so forth. What would you have us do, buy another car to commute to work? It is easy to sit back and say most SUV/vans are unneeded, when it is YOU that does not need one.
There are people who legitimately need larger, high occupancy vehicles. My wife for example, during the day she drives to work alone, but 3 out of 5 weeknights, and on saturdays, all the seats are usually full of soccer teams, softball teams, and so forth. What would you have us do, buy another car to commute to work? It is easy to sit back and say most SUV/vans are unneeded, when it is YOU that does not need one.
Last edited by maddyfish; 05-09-07 at 06:37 AM.
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Originally Posted by maddyfish
You ask how did kids get anywhere before the Suburban, well my Mom had a Ford station wagon back in the 70's, it had a 400, got about 5 mpg, and polluted like crazy. It was my first car.
There are people who legitimately need larger, high occupancy vehicles. My wife for example, during the day she drives to work alone, but 3 out of 5 weeknights, and on saturdays, all the seats are usually full of soccer teams, softball teams, and so forth. What would you have us do, buy another car to commute to work? It is easy to sit back and say most SUV/vans are unneeded, when it is YOU that does not need one.
There are people who legitimately need larger, high occupancy vehicles. My wife for example, during the day she drives to work alone, but 3 out of 5 weeknights, and on saturdays, all the seats are usually full of soccer teams, softball teams, and so forth. What would you have us do, buy another car to commute to work? It is easy to sit back and say most SUV/vans are unneeded, when it is YOU that does not need one.
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I get a sense that those are the kind of sentiments that won't change easily.
There are a great deal of people that will change before change is necessary. There are others, perhaps your friends on that board, that won't change until someone is holding a gun to their head. Citizens for Global Warming? What a bunch of dumbsh1ts!
There are a great deal of people that will change before change is necessary. There are others, perhaps your friends on that board, that won't change until someone is holding a gun to their head. Citizens for Global Warming? What a bunch of dumbsh1ts!
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Originally Posted by EnigManiac
Could it not be that MOST SUV's and vans are not needed, but yours is?
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
More likely is that individuals decide for themselves what is needed for themselves, rather than allow uninformed strangers to smugly determine what are their Real needs.
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
More likely is that individuals decide for themselves what is needed for themselves, rather than allow uninformed strangers to smugly determine what are their Real needs.
It may be black and white... to someone who's mind is already made up and uninformed.
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Originally Posted by kc9eog
Fair enough, the market will decide. When gas prices are truly high people will stop just complaining and acutally change their behavior. I just hope our economy doesn't go into the absolute crapper as a result.
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Originally Posted by EnigManiac
Could it not be that MOST SUV's and vans are not needed, but yours is?
#10
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I almost always see SUVs with just one person in there, and they are usually commuting to work or going to the store. There are also a lot of Hummers around here, and only twice have I seen it with more than one person in it (1 driver, 1 passenger). And believe me, I look, because they are usually passing me on my bike.
And why would someone argue that a parking lot at WORK where you spend the majority of your waking hours is not a good indicator of who is driving these vehicles?
The *real* soccer moms have VANS, because they seat the 8 kids. And trucks are everywhere, but few people are hauling anything.
I live in the midwest though, maybe it's different in your neck of the woods. But here, people buy the big vehicles because they are cool, or whatever. MANY MANY MANY of them don't do it for utility's sake.
Maddyfish, I'm sure some people do much of their hauling and carpooling on the weekends. But why they choose to commute in this utility vehicle everywhere else (the majority of travel for many), is because ? For the price of a shiny new big truck, one can get a nice sedan for commuting and an older truck for hauling, instead of having his and hers F250's. I do know that many families have SUV's and vans to travel/sports/hauling in and that is one thing. But all of these SUV's and trucks on the road with one passenger is something else entirely.
OP, it was a nice post you had. These people will never shift their paradigm from a forum entry. But planting the seeds of change may pay off in the future, so hats off to you!
And why would someone argue that a parking lot at WORK where you spend the majority of your waking hours is not a good indicator of who is driving these vehicles?
The *real* soccer moms have VANS, because they seat the 8 kids. And trucks are everywhere, but few people are hauling anything.
I live in the midwest though, maybe it's different in your neck of the woods. But here, people buy the big vehicles because they are cool, or whatever. MANY MANY MANY of them don't do it for utility's sake.
Maddyfish, I'm sure some people do much of their hauling and carpooling on the weekends. But why they choose to commute in this utility vehicle everywhere else (the majority of travel for many), is because ? For the price of a shiny new big truck, one can get a nice sedan for commuting and an older truck for hauling, instead of having his and hers F250's. I do know that many families have SUV's and vans to travel/sports/hauling in and that is one thing. But all of these SUV's and trucks on the road with one passenger is something else entirely.
OP, it was a nice post you had. These people will never shift their paradigm from a forum entry. But planting the seeds of change may pay off in the future, so hats off to you!
Last edited by thimblescratch; 05-09-07 at 08:55 AM.
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Originally Posted by maddyfish
You ask how did kids get anywhere before the Suburban, well my Mom had a Ford station wagon back in the 70's, it had a 400, got about 5 mpg, and polluted like crazy. It was my first car.
There are people who legitimately need larger, high occupancy vehicles. My wife for example, during the day she drives to work alone, but 3 out of 5 weeknights, and on saturdays, all the seats are usually full of soccer teams, softball teams, and so forth. What would you have us do, buy another car to commute to work? It is easy to sit back and say most SUV/vans are unneeded, when it is YOU that does not need one.
There are people who legitimately need larger, high occupancy vehicles. My wife for example, during the day she drives to work alone, but 3 out of 5 weeknights, and on saturdays, all the seats are usually full of soccer teams, softball teams, and so forth. What would you have us do, buy another car to commute to work? It is easy to sit back and say most SUV/vans are unneeded, when it is YOU that does not need one.
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
More likely is that individuals decide for themselves what is needed for themselves, rather than allow uninformed strangers to smugly determine what are their Real needs.
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A sedan with a hitch also makes for good hauling. Hauling is just another of the reasons why someone CAN'T let go of their precious truck. Like I said, one day people will be forced to make these adaptations but it may be too late.
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Originally Posted by thimblescratch
In this society it is difficult for anyone to decipher NEEDS from WANTS. I think some 'uninformed strangers' are just trying to differentiate between the two.
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
More like the uninformed strangers are tying to decide, without information, if other people's NEEDS match their own, and if the answer is no, then the NEEDS become unnecessary WANTS.
And furthermore, which NEED is greater? For example the need for everyone to breathe clean air, or the need to get your kids to soccer practice? If they all have asthma soccer practice will basically suck.
#18
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But the tone of the conversation there illustrates why it's going to take strong measures to get people driving less, and diving more efficient vehicles. Like maybe CAFE laws, higher taxes or gas rationing. It's our job to start convincing the people that these laws are needed and "for your own good." So it isn't really a waste of time to keep on talking on that forum, kc9eoq. Maybe somebody will actually think about what you're saying.
Off topic, I don't get why ham radio people have an internet forum. Can't they talk to each other on the radio?
Off topic, I don't get why ham radio people have an internet forum. Can't they talk to each other on the radio?
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Originally Posted by Roody
But the tone of the conversation there illustrates why it's going to take strong measures to get people driving less, and diving more efficient vehicles. Like maybe CAFE laws, higher taxes or gas rationing. It's our job to start convincing the people that these laws are needed and "for your own good." So it isn't really a waste of time to keep on talking on that forum, kc9eoq. Maybe somebody will actually think about what you're saying.
Off topic, I don't get why ham radio people have an internet forum. Can't they talk to each other on the radio?
Off topic, I don't get why ham radio people have an internet forum. Can't they talk to each other on the radio?
#20
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
More like the uninformed strangers are tying to decide, without information, if other people's NEEDS match their own, and if the answer is no, then the NEEDS become unnecessary WANTS.
Another aspect is that "needs" are shaped by the environment one lives in. As some of the people in the other forum said, they need a private motor vehicle because they live in an area that doesn't have public transit. IOW, their environment is lacking in one need, forcing them to turn to another need. If they're concerned about their forced dependence on gasoline, they should try to get public transit in their area. At the very least, they should try to use the most efficient vehicle, and avoid unnecessary trips with it.
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#21
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Originally Posted by thimblescratch
Sometimes their ham radios break, and they have to find someone to trade a steak radio for it. The internet is good for that.
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Originally Posted by Roody
At the very least, they should try to use the most efficient vehicle, and avoid unnecessary trips with it.
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Originally Posted by thimblescratch
I almost always see SUVs with just one person in there, and they are usually commuting to work or going to the store. There are also a lot of Hummers around here, and only twice have I seen it with more than one person in it (1 driver, 1 passenger). And believe me, I look, because they are usually passing me on my bike.
And why would someone argue that a parking lot at WORK where you spend the majority of your waking hours is not a good indicator of who is driving these vehicles?
The *real* soccer moms have VANS, because they seat the 8 kids. And trucks are everywhere, but few people are hauling anything.
I live in the midwest though, maybe it's different in your neck of the woods. But here, people buy the big vehicles because they are cool, or whatever. MANY MANY MANY of them don't do it for utility's sake.
Maddyfish, I'm sure some people do much of their hauling and carpooling on the weekends. But why they choose to commute in this utility vehicle everywhere else (the majority of travel for many), is because ? For the price of a shiny new big truck, one can get a nice sedan for commuting and an older truck for hauling, instead of having his and hers F250's. I do know that many families have SUV's and vans to travel/sports/hauling in and that is one thing. But all of these SUV's and trucks on the road with one passenger is something else entirely.
OP, it was a nice post you had. These people will never shift their paradigm from a forum entry. But planting the seeds of change may pay off in the future, so hats off to you!
And why would someone argue that a parking lot at WORK where you spend the majority of your waking hours is not a good indicator of who is driving these vehicles?
The *real* soccer moms have VANS, because they seat the 8 kids. And trucks are everywhere, but few people are hauling anything.
I live in the midwest though, maybe it's different in your neck of the woods. But here, people buy the big vehicles because they are cool, or whatever. MANY MANY MANY of them don't do it for utility's sake.
Maddyfish, I'm sure some people do much of their hauling and carpooling on the weekends. But why they choose to commute in this utility vehicle everywhere else (the majority of travel for many), is because ? For the price of a shiny new big truck, one can get a nice sedan for commuting and an older truck for hauling, instead of having his and hers F250's. I do know that many families have SUV's and vans to travel/sports/hauling in and that is one thing. But all of these SUV's and trucks on the road with one passenger is something else entirely.
OP, it was a nice post you had. These people will never shift their paradigm from a forum entry. But planting the seeds of change may pay off in the future, so hats off to you!
For a cyclist, you can have a MTB for trail riding, a road or touring bike for those longer trips, a commuter bike for those short, in town trips, maybe rigged up for some serious hauling with a trailer. Maybe you have spent $3,000 for the whole setup (including the trailer). Your annual maintenance cost, is maybe $400, for all of them, so the incentives of low cost, and low maintenance costs, mean that specialization is easy. Heck for an extra $2500 throw in a Honda Jazz for those times you want to go a little further or are feeling too tired to try and tackle the hill-from-hell on 4th Street..... Maybe add an extra $500 a year for maintenance on the Honda, and the rare gas purchase..... So maybe you spend $900 a year on maintenance, the average motorist is spending more then that on insurance alone.... I wonder how a Jazz would do in snow**********?
For motorists, vehicles are much more expensive, maintenance, insurance, etc. mean that most people are limited to a single vehicle. So they must get the most utiliitarian vehicle they can afford. Car companies have incentives to go larger, leasing is one, financing is out to 72 months, yes that is six years of slavery for a motor vehicle. The bright side is that you can buy a $30,000 one instead of a $25,000 one, for only $100 a month more, and join the wannabe rich You never do know, maybe the guy with the SUV needs to haul a drum kit, or a double bass around, drives the kids to soccer practise, and several people to church on Sunday...... They can't afford multiple vehicles like cyclists can......
What I find interesting is that some people are using bicycles for some trips and small motorcycles for others....
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[QUOTE=kc9eog]I am sure high gas prices are on every board, but I really don't want to lose this time, so could anyone here help me work on these people? I feel like the argument I am making is exactly correct and that this really is a matter of Black and White, as opposed to most controversies which are shaded gray. So, any help?
The fellow's mind is made up. He's not going to buy your arguments.
You are being logical. DOH! You are arguing against him. How do you make your point emotionally, sympathising with him?
The fellow's mind is made up. He's not going to buy your arguments.
You are being logical. DOH! You are arguing against him. How do you make your point emotionally, sympathising with him?
#25
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Originally Posted by kc9eog
I am sure high gas prices are on every board, but I really don't want to lose this time, so could anyone here help me work on these people? I feel like the argument I am making is exactly correct and that this really is a matter of Black and White, as opposed to most controversies which are shaded gray. So, any help?
Sure.