Cardiff43

I’ve acquired some titanium tubing with Haynes class 2 printed on it. Along with HT 2-1528 DMS-2241E and lot-53321-2 also printed on it. Does anyone know what grade this is? When I google search this a page from Haynes website comes up talking about Ti-3al-2.5v but doesn’t mention class 2. I’ve emailed Haynes but no reply.

Nessism

Googling "titanium grades" turned up a number of hits including this one...https://www.magellanmetals.com/titanium-grade2

Grade 2 is a low grade tubing. 3Al2.5V is the standard tubing used for bike frames and it a good bit stronger material.

bulgie 

Some early Ti frames were made with Grade 2 (Commercially Pure or CP Ti), but they all broke (exaggerating slightly). Very much weaker than Grade 9 (3Al/2.5V). It would be foolish to build a frame with Grade 2 nowadays, when even the cheapest Chinese Ti frames use better alloy.

I have some CP Ti that I got for pennies from Boeing Surplus back in the day. I use it for making spacers when strength doesn't matter. Aluminum might be better in that application, but I can point out that it's Ti and people go "ooh, aah". Other than that, it's rather useless.

Mark B in Seattle

Cardiff43

Thanks for the info everyone. So then class 2 must mean the same as grade 2?

unterhausen

Are you sure that's DMS and not AMS? Can't get the AMS2241E standard for free right now, but it doesn't look like it would help you anyway
https://www.sae.org/standards/content/ams2241e/

People still make CP Ti, I have worked with a lot of it, but not regarding bikes. I don't know if class 2 and grade 2 are the same, never heard CP Ti called that. But that doesn't mean much.

Cardiff43

I checked again and it does say DMS2241E. Another piece says DMS2241A
Im assuming that the company Haynes printed class 2 on it. It’s the same font.

bulgie 

Hey I'm real sorry if I mislead anyone by talking about Grade 2, when your tube says Class 2. No idea if those are the same, but I'm leaning toward thinking they're not the same. Haynes definitely knows what the Grade numbers of Ti alloys mean, and they wouldn't call it "Class" by accident, would they? A mystery...

unterhausen

I'm hardly an expert, in the past people just handed me a pile of the stuff and told me what they wanted me to figure out how to do with it.

Okay, googling some more makes me think it's a "Douglas Material Specification" -- so owned by boeing now

bulgie 

Yes and all the google hits I got said the material is "titanium alloy", which should mean it can't be Grade 2 (CP), which is not considered an alloy. (My understanding of Grade 2 is that anything in it besides Ti is an impurity, except for a small amount of oxygen that's in there on purpose. Oxygen being a nonmetal means this doesn't meet the def. of alloy).

In my web search results I found tube of that spec offered from Sandvik and Ancotech as well as Haynes, which last I heard is all 3 of the Ti tube mills in America. (My Ti framebuilding days were in the 90s though so my info is probably out of date.)

Of course if we could read the actual spec, it would go into detail about which alloy, heat treat etc. But alloy Ti tubing is overwhelmingly 3/2.5 CWSR, so that's probably what you have. That's the good stuff for bike frames. Airliners have miles of that stuff in their hydraulics. But if "probably" from some dude on a forum is enough for you, don't make bikes for other people to ride!

Gary Helfrich had a deal with Ancotech in the '90s that included them giving him large quantities of uncertified tubing to use in his Ti framebuilding classes. All 3/2.5 CWSR. He gave me a pile of it and I made two frames out of it, for my wife and for my mom. Never got around to making one for me though <sigh>. I never could see what made it seconds, but they couldn't sell it to their aerospace customers as certified. Gary had no qualms about people riding on it, just so long as we didn't sell the frames to any consumers.

Semi-related story: Dave Levy of Ti Cycles made himself a road frame with a CP main triangle (probably Grade 2 or Grade 3), because he found some 1-1/4" x .020". That's roughly half as thick as the thinnest 3/2.5 he could get at the time ('90s), so it made a whippy but superlight frame. He raced it extensively, like one and a half seasons IIRC, and he's a hard-pedaling guy, Cat.2 at the time maybe? Competitive Masters racer anyway, faster than me... It eventually broke right where we expected it would, seat tube at the BB shell, on the side. I'd say the experiment was a success because it was superduperlight and it lasted longer than we expected. He did not make any frames for anyone else to ride out of that stuff though, he's not crazy.

To sell to customers, you should have liability insurance, and only use certified tubing of known provenance.

Mark B in Seattle

unterhausen

I harbor a suspicion that the DMS is the same as the AMS spec with the same number. I'll see what that says the next time I'm on a computer with access

Cardiff43

Thanks again everyone. It’s been really helpful. The size of the titanium is 7/8”x.061” wall. I make chromoly BMX flatland multi-piece handlebars, no bends all welded joints and want to make a Ti version with this material. Not for sale, just for me and a friend.