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How long are we going to continue to play like we can stop this?

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How long are we going to continue to play like we can stop this?

Old 07-05-20, 07:09 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
I hope it is not a dog whistle.
There are many examples of unwarranted optimism in this thread.

cf: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-cdc-data.html
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Old 07-05-20, 07:39 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
There are many examples of unwarranted optimism in this thread.

cf: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-cdc-data.html
Dear god, let's not go where I think you are going. Indeed, minorities have been hit harder by covid19, but that's a wholly different statement from saying that their presence in our population is a principle cause of its spread. There are many reasons why they have been hit harder. Take for example, the experiences of people who work in meat packing plants, farm workers, etc. I could go on, but if the argument is that the US experience with covid19 is different from other countries because of our racial diversity, then I'm out of this thread.
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Old 07-05-20, 08:28 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
It IS being managed in "culturally diverse large geographic" regions. Look around the world.

1. Countries such as France, Japan, China, Germany, Spain, Canada Australia hardly qualify as "small locales"..
> these are countries with well defined cultures and in each of these countries the government is temporarily "managing" COVID among its "own" and their ethnic populations to the extent they exist within their borders do not play a significant part in the affairs of government or institutions. in each of these countries the chances of "managing" covid is directly linked to the extent that the given country can isolate its people from "outsiders". geography may forestall COVID in japan or australia or even spain but france & germany & russia & US have lesser geographic barriers and only the worst will come without a vaccine or trump's miracle
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Old 07-05-20, 08:30 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Dear god, let's not go where I think you are going.
I'm not going there. Crackpot is.
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Old 07-05-20, 08:39 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by jack pot View Post
> these are countries with well defined cultures and in each of these countries the government is temporarily "managing" COVID among its "own" and their ethnic populations to the extent they exist within their borders do not play a significant part in the affairs of government or institutions. in each of these countries the chances of "managing" covid is directly linked to the extent that the given country can isolate its people from "outsiders". geography may forestall COVID in japan or australia or even spain but france & germany & russia & US have lesser geographic barriers and only the worst will come without a vaccine or trump's miracle
The problem with the pandemic in the US has NOTHING to do with outsiders. Our borders have been effectively sealed since March. There's no evidence that our failure to control the pandemic in May and June comes from outsiders. It comes from our own behavior and policies.

As to "well defined cultures", I have no idea what you mean with respect to the pandemic response. Perhaps this applies to S. Korea or Japan, but what could it possibly mean about the difference between our experience with the pandemic and that of Spain, France, Germany?

. Also, the fact that you separate "their own" from "their ethnic" populations is offensive. Do you mean that French citizens of North African descent aren't really French? Either way, ethnicity has nothing to do with the public health response in the EU countries. Nearly every phrase you write is loaded with dynamite. What could you possibly mean when you write that in those countries "ethnic populations to the extent they exist within their borders do not play a significant part in the affairs of government or institutions"? Are you saying that somehow the role of ethnic minorities in our government affairs is part of our problem with the pandemic? How?

Please stop trying to find "ethnic" or "outsider" scapegoats for a problem that is very much American. Please.
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Old 07-05-20, 08:42 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
I'm not going there. Crackpot is.
It seemed to me that you were adding fuel to the fire, but maybe I missed your intent.
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Old 07-05-20, 09:44 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
It seemed to me that you were adding fuel to the fire, but maybe I missed your intent.
No, that was not my intent.

I honestly don't have any idea what Crackpot is saying 90% of the time.
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Old 07-05-20, 09:53 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
No, that was not my intent.
Glad to hear it. Sorry for taking the wrong inference.
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Old 07-05-20, 09:58 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Glad to hear it. Sorry for taking the wrong inference.
Well, you weren't completely wrong. I think this is a huge problem, and it is being exploited for all the worst reasons by many of the worst people in power.

I posted this earlier, but it got lost in the fray:

Here is another reason why it ain't going anywhere anytime soon (and why I won't eat an pistachios any more):

Dozens of pistachio plant workers infected with COVID-19


“I started feeling sick like three days before (the diagnosis) and I asked my supervisor to let me go home and he said there was a lot of work and not enough employees,” Ramirez said. “Then I made an appointment to go to the doctor, asked permission again, but by the time I was let off work, the clinic was closed.”

Ramirez, 54, has worked at the Primex Farms plant, located in Wasco in the San Joaquin Valley, for more than 12 years. The company, which processes more than 60 million pounds a year of nuts, has about 400 year-round packing plant workers, many of whom earn minimum wage.

Despite dozens of infections like Ramirez’s, the Primex plant did not shut down until last week, on June 26. That was ten days after Ramirez said he tested positive with the coronavirus. And 16 days after the first case of COVID-19 was confirmed at Primex.

The plant reopened with limited operations on Wednesday after voluntarily shutting down for five days, employees said. But as they return to work, the workers said they are still worried and do not feel safe.

As of Wednesday, 78 workers at the Primex plant — about one-fifth of its year-round staff — have been infected with COVID-19, along with 34 family members, including children, according to the labor union United Farm Workers. The youngest is just nine months old.

Last edited by wgscott; 07-05-20 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 07-05-20, 10:09 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post

I honestly don't have any idea what Crackpot is saying 90% of the time.
...I just cut and paste it into Google Translate, choose Urdu, then translate it back to English. It clarifies a lot of it.
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Old 07-05-20, 10:11 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post

Here is another reason why it ain't going anywhere anytime soon (and why I won't eat an pistachios any more):

Dozens of pistachio plant workers infected with COVID-19
...nuts.
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Old 07-05-20, 10:16 PM
  #112  
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Pistachios are like OCD candy.
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Old 07-05-20, 11:54 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Juan Foote View Post
Realist = defeatist and we are going gain herd immunity without having had it, or without an effective vaccine?

You need a cup of coffee.
If you think we're going to reach herd immunity by people getting infected, you're not a realist. I mean, how's that herd immunity working out for the cold and flu?
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Old 07-05-20, 11:56 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by Juan Foote View Post
The loss of people is still trivial in comparison to automotive accidents. 3700 people a day in the US alone, compared to less than 5k globally. No one is shutting down the economy over the car death pandemic. It is because we understand it more clearly? Have come to terms with it? Accept it?
​​​​​​Don't worry, we're getting closer to herd immunity for car accidents. We just have to let this run its course.
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Old 07-06-20, 12:03 AM
  #115  
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On a serious note, it's not that we can't stop the virus, it's that we won't. Smallpox was a horrible disease. Was. We've been free of it for 40 years. Caronavirus would be easier to eradicate, but still very inconvenient, and people just won't cooperate enough to do it.

We were about 2 years away from eradicating polio when covid came along.
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Old 07-06-20, 12:06 AM
  #116  
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Old 07-06-20, 12:28 AM
  #117  
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Think a 'mild' case of Covid-19 doesn’t sound so bad? Think again

https://www.yahoo.com/news/think-mil...051726849.html
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Old 07-06-20, 01:14 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
We can't stop the virus so we shouldn't make things less bad?
With survival in air and surfaces like this thing has, with the inability of nearly all masks people wear to actually filter out the virus, it's hard to say many of the steps actually do much. Let alone make things markedly "less bad."

Not that those things shouldn't be attempted. But it'd be far better if steps promoted and done actually could be shown to matter. Short of not being around others and ceasing all contact with stuff people have touched, it's hard to keep this thing away from people. And without filtering that actually captures this virus, it's hard to fail to transmit it into the surrounding air and onto surrounding surfaces.
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Old 07-06-20, 01:37 AM
  #119  
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I would be happy if we could do what Europe has done.
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Old 07-06-20, 02:50 AM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by Clyde1820 View Post
With survival in air and surfaces like this thing has, with the inability of nearly all masks people wear to actually filter out the virus, it's hard to say many of the steps actually do much. Let alone make things markedly "less bad."

Not that those things shouldn't be attempted. But it'd be far better if steps promoted and done actually could be shown to matter. Short of not being around others and ceasing all contact with stuff people have touched, it's hard to keep this thing away from people. And without filtering that actually captures this virus, it's hard to fail to transmit it into the surrounding air and onto surrounding surfaces.

Suggest you do some reading about progress made by countries other than the US.
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Old 07-06-20, 02:53 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
I would be happy if we could do what Europe has done.
Yup. Story today on the BBC about two small regions in Spain that have been locked down owing to "outbreaks" - each of about 100 cases. they have it under control now to the point where small outbreaks are located and shut down.

Similar story about melbourne, AUS. They have an "outbreak of a couple of hundred cases (in a city of about 5 millon, I think), and they have sealed the border with New South Wales, isolated some of the buildings where the outbreaks are concentrated. they will test, control, trace, and shut it down.

And people here keep saying "it can't be controlled we have to live with it running wild, etc." As if it's really out of human control. It's NOT.

Last edited by MinnMan; 07-06-20 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 07-06-20, 04:44 AM
  #122  
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[QUOTE=I honestly don't have any idea what Crackpot is saying 90% of the time.[/QUOTE] >

france > For many migrants still camped out in Calais and Dunkirk, the coronavirus pandemic has exacerbated an already dire situation. Supermarkets are reportedly turning them away and the police are removing their tents.

the mideast> In the oil-rich Persian Gulf states, foreign workers face high risks, low wages and exploitation. The COVID-19 outbreak is a health crisis they can't afford, and authorities and employers are providing little support.

germany> At least 70 people at a refugee home near Bonn have tested positive for COVID-19. News of the outbreak prompted calls for better protection for asylum-seekers and more testing at the often crowded facilities

>>> as for the US any response is hampered by a for profit system which monetizes individual treatment compared to socialized health care so mrMinn i wasn't playing the race(trump) card i was pointing out that COVID will continue to spread despite pockets of flattened curves AND that in regions ( island nations or remote areas) where there is a semblance of COVID understanding & control there will be a xenophobic response to outsiders and that this xenophobia will increase with time because as the COVID rages elsewhere the need to isolate will become stronger & more militant at every level . all this begs for a vaccine or trump's miracle and lacking one or the other the quality of life in the developed world will be radically degraded.
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Old 07-06-20, 06:47 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Suggest you do some reading about progress made by countries other than the US.
Have done. Plenty has been written.

Point was simply that this thing travels easily. Via air, via aerosol/droplets. It deposits on surfaces. And while localized "hot spot" contact tracing and isolation can be done, after the fact once it's been contracted, there's simply no way to ensure (with current capabilities and technologies) that it won't continue to transmit to others close by. About the only sure-fire thing to keep a given infected person from infecting others has been: complete isolation from others.

Humans being what they are, that's only going to work in some societies, where all or nearly all are prepared to isolate from contact in that way. All it takes is one, incubating and transmitting, for dozens or more to get infected. And since this thing can occur without symptoms, it's often hard or impossible to "contact trace" with certainty. Particularly if people are randomly going here and there, many refusing (or failing) to carry traceable-tech (ie, "smart" phones) on them so their every move gets known.

Beyond all of that, too, is the fact that very few of whole populations have actually been tested. Which is to say that it's impossible to actually know how widespread this thing's gotten in 6+ months' of transmission. Likely, vastly further than merely the next house, next county, next "group home" or "gathering spot." And we might never know, given most don't get really ill, let alone show verifiable and obvious symptoms.

Sure, do what we can. And contact-trace after the fact, hoping we identify each individual in a myriad-of-contacts scenario. Given this thing is airborne, it's all but certain to get out of people's homes in some manner, and/or transmit to the next person via some surface.

Haven't heard of a catch-all, foolproof method of halting a transmission, when it's unclear if someone's incubating, when it's unclear there are any symptoms, when it's uncertain if people in the near area will have tracking devices (phones) on them that will help identify others who were there at the same time. To my knowledge, none has yet been devised, helpful though some steps have been to corral known hot spots and known transmissions.
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Old 07-06-20, 06:58 AM
  #124  
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^^^^^ "crack pot" LIKES but WG & MINNY want to keep throwing pennies in americas wishing well
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Old 07-06-20, 07:50 AM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...my point, which you have missed, is that this is a new and unique virus. Any longer term immunity in survivors is up for grabs at this point, thus the comparison to the waves of Black Death, which ravaged Europe for over 50 years at the close of the 14th Century. Your assumption is that once everyone has had this, everything will be fine. Thus far you cannot make that assumption.



...OK, I'm out. Once someone starts making the "deaths from car accidents" argument, I know it's time to leave.

How weird what came out in the news today about the plague, eh? HOW could you have known?

Aside, this thread took off in a whole new area that I ain't touching with a 10 footer.
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