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Common Sense Cycling

Old 08-01-20, 03:18 PM
  #76  
livedarklions
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
I do remember you asking "when do you take the lane" several times, and feel that's a fair and relevant question. I don't recall livedarklions giving any specific answers to it. But he did say that when he does take the lane he's not practicing VC, it's something else.

So I guess you are right... the name of how one rides is very important to some.

Personally I'm fine with VC, but leaning away from the term "take the lane". It makes it sound like stealing. I'm not taking anything, just like drivers of motor vehicles aren't either when they are in the lane.

I'm using the lane, riding in the lane, or utilizing the lane. Safely and in accordance with the rules of the road.

I've described it generally several times, and this whole thread started with a very clear explanation from me as to why I wouldn't take the lane in a situation op had alleged was "common sense" . What am I supposed to do, make a bunch of hypothetical diagrams? FRAP with a very flexible definition of "practicable" . I've described it as pragmatic, with a heavy use of local knowledge of roads and driver habits.

And having been accused of being slow, irrationally afraid of taking the lane and xenophobic by op for disagreeing with op does not incline me to respond kindly to a bunch of stupid questions from op. OP didn't originally ask me "when" I took the lane, the question was if I took the lane, which you noted I had said several times. This was not the first time in this thread op had asked me something I had already explained fully. At some point, one realizes one is wasting electrons and time.
​​
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Old 08-01-20, 03:32 PM
  #77  
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Perhaps we should call it Lane Positioning?

Helpful hint. It’s not the toxic brand, it’s the toxic “proponents” of the school of cycling is perfectly safe but you’ll all die if you don’t listen to me.

-mr. bill
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Old 08-01-20, 03:37 PM
  #78  
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So long as travel speeds on roadways are vastly different between automobiles and bikes, I have a hard time seeing how the distinction could be eliminated.

On certain roads, and when groups (of bikes) of a certain size occur, I sometimes see the entire lane taken up by the cyclists. Given the alternatives, it's probably the single safest way to go down that road. For all concerned.

But, outside such situations, as with the typical solo cyclist on a one- or two-lane (per side) roadway, it's utterly tempting (even the one specified legal) manner of riding on that road to keep to the right of the right-most lane. In general, probably safer, particularly in communities or states where full lane occupancy isn't expected.

Trouble is, no matter how many cyclists (solo or otherwise), given the speed differentials there will usually (perhaps always) be at least one motorist who gets "cranked" over the concept of "delays" being foisted upon others. Some will lash out. Some will disregard traffic laws to get past the slow vehicles, perhaps even causing threat of crash to others while doing so. (BTDT, on the receiving end, myself, on a few occasions, where such felons chose to "stick it" to me on the way by, out of sheer sociopathic petulance.)


In the not-too-distant future, I'd like to see every single "major" thouroughfare through a town of any size be required to get constructed with separate, decently-sized bike paths (or lanes), just on principle alone. There's no way we're going to be able to continue handling the sheer number of motor vehicles, without alternatives. And until serious, easy-to-use alternatives exist for the average person, it's hard to change the trajectory we're on. One done, once we build it, I believe they'll come. If forced via taxation and constraints placed on "traditional" motor vehicle access to spots, I suspect that there will generally be a great increase in the percentage of people taking alternative methods ... including bikes. If only the option existed, for safely taking such routes. (Which, quite simply, in many places in the U.S. it simply doesn't, given the roadway designs and traffic patterns.)
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Old 08-01-20, 05:38 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by mcours2006 View Post
I see vehicular cycling as a last resort for cyclists who ride on roads. I do it--taking the lane when necessary, but I do not like it, and it is stressful. Much preferable and safer is having a separate, segregated bike lane or MUP where I don't have to deal with cars and drivers. Advocating for vehicular cycling implies that safer cycling infrastructure is not needed because we can just ride beside cars.

What he said +1
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Old 08-01-20, 06:39 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by mcours2006 View Post
I see vehicular cycling as a last resort for cyclists who ride on roads. I do it--taking the lane when necessary, but I do not like it, and it is stressful. Much preferable and safer is having a separate, segregated bike lane or MUP where I don't have to deal with cars and drivers.
In a lot of places (especially, in the US), separate, segregated bike lanes are rare. And don't go very far. MUPs are often crowded with dogs and walkers.

So the practical choice is between riding on the road or not riding. (Or riding slow or on off hours.)

Originally Posted by mcours2006 View Post
Advocating for vehicular cycling implies that safer cycling infrastructure is not needed because we can just ride beside cars.
"Advocating for vehicular cycling" is advocating that people acquire skills to ride on the road. Roads that they won't always be able to avoid.

It sort of seems that people adamantly against vehicular cycling either don't understand it (it's not "always talking the lane") or don't ride much.
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Old 08-01-20, 07:15 PM
  #81  
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Advocating for vehicular cycling implies that safer cycling infrastructure is not needed because we can just ride beside cars.


That would be in front of and behind cars.

I believe a person can advocate for both cycling specific infrastructure and vehicular cycling. There is room for both!

Not all bike infrastructure is safe, some can give a sense of security while actually increasing risks. So it is important for those advocating for this to get involved and make sure it's done right.

Since most roads don't have any bike infrastructure, (and most never will) VC is and always will be a handy way to safely ride them.

My favorite take away of all things VC, is the can do attitude. While others say the roads are unsafe for bikes, the VC proponents are out riding them everywhere right now.

Several years back there was a most vocal VC proponent on this board who drove many posters nuts with his rabid VC crusading. I believe he was the reason this sub-forum was created! I also admit he went overboard on his crusade to "save" the non-believers. Even so, I always admired his go anywhere on the bike attitude, and his "Every lane is a bike lane!" signature. Yay, for bikes on the road!
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Old 08-02-20, 08:18 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
FRAP is far right as practicable in the roadway. The roadway is the travel lane. It's not the shoulder.

======================

Vehicular cycling without the BS.

https://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/

LOL. Still peddling the BS that you are driving a bicycle and that's not allowed on shoulders. HILLARIOUS
Street( dumbs) = VC with ONLY BS. FIFY
Then there's the pic above with the van and a PERFECT shoulder, except for a few specks.... That allegedly precludes/ absolves using ANY shoulder. LOL
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Old 08-02-20, 08:37 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53 View Post
LOL. Still peddling the BS that you are driving a bicycle and that's not allowed on shoulders. HILLARIOUS
Street( dumbs) = VC with ONLY BS. FIFY
Then there's the pic above with the van and a PERFECT shoulder, except for a few specks.... That allegedly precludes/ absolves using ANY shoulder. LOL
​​​​WTH?

You are an example of people talking about VC but not understanding it.

​​​​​​I did not say riding in the shoulder wasn't allowed.

​​​​​​
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Old 08-02-20, 01:07 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
It sort of seems that people adamantly against vehicular cycling either don't understand it (it's not "always talking the lane") or don't ride much.
So in this thread alone we are simpletons, clueless, and inexperienced?

To summarize just SOME of the other pejoratives:
  • Incompetent cyclists
  • Gutter bunnies
  • Edge cyclists

People KNOW what you are selling, and aren’t buying.


Phase one: Insult your audience
Phase two: ???
Phase three: Profit

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 08-02-20 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 08-02-20, 01:44 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Perhaps we should call it Lane Positioning?

Helpful hint. It’s not the toxic brand, it’s the toxic “proponents” of the school of cycling is perfectly safe but you’ll all die if you don’t listen to me.

-mr. bill
​​​​​​I think the issue is that these proponents have taken techniques that work pretty well on busy, relatively slow urban streets and write as if all streets, roads and riders are alike. When I'm riding in Boston and inner suburbs, I'm in the lane a lot. If I'm riding around in Bolton, not so much at all.

It's really not what they prescribe that's the problem, it's this constant prosciption of a bunch of stuff I do safely a lot in many contexts that annoys me and, as you suggest, spread the message that cycling is a lot more dangerous than it really is.

I actually have no real difference with AlmostTrick , but think he's missing a lot of the "never do" and "always do" posts you're describing.
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Old 08-02-20, 02:08 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
​​​​​​When I'm riding in Boston and inner suburbs, I'm in the lane a lot.
As am I. Even sometimes when there is a bike lane.

I ride past more car doors in a morning or afternoon than some of the “proponents” have ridden past in a lifetime.

I’ve ridden in bus/bike lanes that some of the “every lane is a bike lane” folks would NEVER ride in.

Obviously, it’s not them, it’s me.

-mr. bill
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Old 08-02-20, 02:17 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
So in this thread alone we are simpletons, clueless, and inexperienced?

To summarize just SOME of the other pejoratives:
  • Incompetent cyclists
  • Gutter bunnies
  • Edge cyclists

People KNOW what you are selling, and aren’t buying.


Phase one: Insult your audience
Phase two: ???
Phase three: Profit

-mr. bill
???

I said none of those things.

​​​​​If you want to characterize yourself that way to ahead. Seems odd though.
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Old 08-02-20, 02:21 PM
  #88  
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You said “don’t understand it” and “don’t ride much.”

-mr. bill
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Old 08-02-20, 02:26 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
You said “don’t understand it” and “don’t ride much.”

-mr. bill
I didn't say what you implied I said.

1- Some people think VC is "always taking the lane". It's not. So, they are misunderstanding what they are whinging about.
2- Some people here appear to think you can get everywhere using bike paths and bike lanes. That isn't true unless you don't ride much.

Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
To summarize just SOME of the other pejoratives:
  • Incompetent cyclists
  • Gutter bunnies
  • Edge cyclists
I'm pretty sure you realize that these people exist.

The ironic thing is that some of the people here whinging about VC ride VC.

Last edited by njkayaker; 08-02-20 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 08-02-20, 02:27 PM
  #90  
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Simpleton.

-mr. bill
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Old 08-02-20, 02:32 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Simpleton.

-mr. bill
Why do you keep calling yourself names? It's really odd.
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Old 08-02-20, 02:32 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
1- Some people think VC is "always taking the lane". It's not. So, they are misunderstanding what they are whinging about.
2- Some people here appear to think you can get everywhere using bike paths and bike lanes. That isn't true unless you don't ride much.
I am “adamantly opposed“ to “V.C.”, “Lane Positioning” and/or “common sense cycling.”

Which am I?

(That’s a rhetorical question.)


-mr. bill
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Old 08-02-20, 02:34 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
I am “adamantly opposed“ to “V.C.”, “Lane Positioning” and/or “common sense cycling.”

Which am I?

(That’s a rhetorical question.)


-mr. bill
Who cares?

Not a rhetorical question.
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Old 08-02-20, 02:35 PM
  #94  
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Thanks, LDL.

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
​​​​​​It's really not what they prescribe that's the problem, it's this constant prosciption of a bunch of stuff I do safely a lot in many contexts that annoys me and, as you suggest, spread the message that cycling is a lot more dangerous than it really is.
It seems to me that those who believe more cycling infrastructure is needed to make the roads safe for riding are the ones who consider cycling more dangerous than it really is. Same with the "If you took the lane here it would be instant suicide" fear mongers.

I actually have no real difference with AlmostTrick , but think he's missing a lot of the "never do" and "always do" posts you're describing.
What are these "never do" and "always do" posts? Sorry if I missed them!
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Old 08-02-20, 02:42 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Helpful hint. It’s not the toxic brand, it’s the toxic “proponents” of the school of cycling is perfectly safe but you’ll all die if you don’t listen to me.
Phase one: Insult your audience
Phase two: ???
Phase three: Profit
-mr. bill
So, anybody talking about VC is a "toxic proponent"?

Is this guy "toxic"?

https://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/

Last edited by njkayaker; 08-02-20 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 08-02-20, 02:43 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
As am I. Even sometimes when there is a bike lane.

I ride past more car doors in a morning or afternoon than some of the “proponents” have ridden past in a lifetime.

I’ve ridden in bus/bike lanes that some of the “every lane is a bike lane” folks would NEVER ride in.

Obviously, it’s not them, it’s me.

-mr. bill
I've been a bike commuter in Minneapolis, New Orleans, San Francisco/Berkeley, and in the NH seacoast area. I also recreationally ride in the country, between cities and through a lot of urban areas, so I find the idea of a lot of absolute rules really quite funny. What works in one of those contexts is likely to be a complete disaster in another.

I know you've ridden in a far greater variety of places than I have, so I wanted to run this impression by you: The lack of anything resembling a rational street plan in the Boston area pretty much forces a person to vary their riding strategy from neighborhood to neighborhood to a degree I've never seen anywhere else in the US.
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Old 08-02-20, 02:53 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
What are these "never do" and "always do" posts? Sorry if I missed them!
There are "always take the lane" proponents (a guy named "chipseal" was one of them.

One problem with these threads is some people here are arguing as if you believe these things you haven't seen.
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Old 08-02-20, 03:08 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I know you've ridden in a far greater variety of places than I have, so I wanted to run this impression by you: The lack of anything resembling a rational street plan in the Boston area pretty much forces a person to vary their riding strategy from neighborhood to neighborhood to a degree I've never seen anywhere else in the US.
City by city, town by town, even neighborhood by neighborhood. It’s a macrocosm of microcosms.

But just don’t let the crowd here say that things aren’t different around the world. Just two extremes, I’ve ridden on sidewalks in Taipei, I did not die. And I’ve gasp “taken the lane” in Amsterdam, see the video below. I did not die.

(Helpful hint, even in Amsterdam the bike lanes don’t go everywhere.)

Streets of Amsterdam

As far as “cyclists fare best... blah blah blah” (yet another absolutest rubbish).

When traveling between Copenhagen and Malmo, cyclists fare best taking the train.

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 08-19-20 at 06:07 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 08-02-20, 04:02 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
Thanks, LDL.



It seems to me that those who believe more cycling infrastructure is needed to make the roads safe for riding are the ones who consider cycling more dangerous than it really is. Same with the "If you took the lane here it would be instant suicide" fear mongers.



What are these "never do" and "always do" posts? Sorry if I missed them!
Sorry, but I ride a lot on 55 mph state roads where "instant suicide" is no exaggeration. Feel free to try it, but I'm not going to in that context. I'm pretty sure DrIsotope was referring to something similar when he used the phrase.

As to the "never do" and "always do", refer to posts 4 and 8 in this thread. Ride on the right and a truck will kill you is exactly the kind of hysterical rhetoric we're referring to. OP seems to be backing down from that, but stuff like that is not unusual at all on bf.

And don't even get me started on how many "never ride in the door zone" posts and threads there are .

I don't know how old you are, but I suspect I've been riding on roads longer than you've been alive. Where I think where I have the big break with VC rhetoric is its basic hostility to the notion that a bike is a very different classification of vehicle than a car. Roads are a goddamn mess of awkward compromises between differing uses and priorities, from speed limits that are usually ignored to merging roads where lanes join with no clear rule indicating who has the right of way, to drivers who honestly seem to think that they always have an unfettered absolute right to overtake a bicyclist no matter where they are. I can pretend those complications don't exist because of an ideological commitment that they shouldn't, or I can adopt adaptive flexible strategies highly specific to the actual situation I'm in.

Last edited by livedarklions; 08-02-20 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 08-02-20, 05:12 PM
  #100  
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  • This is how i ride and this is why i ride this way..
    • Your arguments are not valid here because you live in a different country.
  • Please explain how do you ride and when do you take the lane
    • I'm not going to explain anything because riding is too complex to explain.
  • Sometimes riding inside the lane might be safer than sticking to the right..
    • You think you know better then everybody and want to teach us how to ride.
  • What you are afraid might be actually safer, have a bit of courage..
    • You are being hysterical and spreading the message that riding is dangerous. btw, roads are instant suicide, a goddamn mess, total chaos...
  • Ok so i'm kindly asking you to explain how do you position yourself on the lane..
    • I do a lot of what you guys do, but i'm much more flexible ( and experienced )
  • But i'm flexible too, every situation demands a different strategy...
    • No i'm not talking to you anymore, this is a waste of time.
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