holytrousers

OH BTW, i'm a very experienced rider.

DrIsotope

I wasn't taking the lane this morning, I was grabbing hold of it like the proletariat seizing the means of production. A good five mile stretch of road works on the center median, so they had sandblasted all of the bike lane right off of the roadway to make two travel lanes. When I tried FRAP, which would ordinarily have been the center of the bike lane, I was getting whisked by sideview mirrors every minute. Putting myself right in the middle of the impromptu lane caused people to just change to the unobstructed lane.

But the anecdote is highly conditional-- speeds were lower in the construction zone, and there was a full lane available for cars to pass. The Sunday Drivers were out in force today.

livedarklions

Your completely inept mischaracterization of literally everything I've ever said demonstrates that I've made the right decision. Just start with the first sentence where I objected to you telling people in other countries how THEY should ride. I never said that your riding style was invalid, but yes, people unfamiliar with the roads and drivers in other countries should probably refrain from telling people in those countries how they SHOULD ride.

I've explained several times that I use a flexible approach, that my default is FRAP, and that positioning decisions are highly contextual. That's an explanation. I never said that I was more flexible nor denigrated anyone else's experience, I just got sick of the implication that I am somehow timid or "not riding on the roads." Yes, I find "have a bit of courage" patronizing and insulting. You've adopted that tone with me and others right from the beginning and yes, I am too experienced and trust my own judgment enough to find that pretty obnoxious.

Never said roads in the U.S. are total chaos, but the rules as practiced are a goddamn mess. I've never said don't ride in that mess, but if you think there are simple, one-size-fits-all rules for all roads and situations, you're extremely naive.

I've never doubted that sometimes riding in the lane is safer than to the right, and I've delineated several times situations where I do that. You made some blanket statements at the beginning of this thread that indicated that you thought it was always the case, hence the examples of roads where that actually would be instant suicide. If you're backing off of those blanket statements, have a cookie.

You haven't "kindly" asked me anything, and you still haven't explained why you would have asked me something as stupid as "do you ever take the lane?" when I had said that I did several times. Instead, you pretended you asked me something quite different.

I'm not reading any more of your pointless bickering. Welcome to my ignore list.

AlmostTrick

I have to admit, some of this did make me laugh. (EDIT: and some of it was spot on) Thanks HT. Fun thread!

Oh, and LDL, I'm 60 years old, and been riding since I was a little kid, just like most folks here. (well, the second part) Thanks for sort of asking. Have you been riding for over 60 years?

To be honest, I do suspect you have more experience in different geographical areas than me, so I do appreciate your views.

Since we're going anecdotal here: My work place is on road posted at 50 mph, so yeah, 60 mph traffic. I ride it during peak periods. The first 8 or 9 years I did this it had absolutely zero shoulder. It was either bravely use the full lane or use a car. Like most everyone else, I considered riding it to be instant suicide. But I wanted to ride my bike to work, so studied up on the VC (and VC type) teachings before heading out. I'm happy to report zero safety issues after more than 14 years, on this and other high speed roads. My default is always to be in the lane, right tire track or farther left. Then, as faster traffic comes up from behind, I'll move right if it is safe and reasonable to do so, which obviously it not always is. I often look back or signal in certain situations. Drivers see me as relevant and courteous. It plain works.

livedarklions

OK, you've got a year on me. Must be your youthful appearance that fooled me. I mentioned how long I've been riding on roads only because there's been several posts, yours included, which have suggested that I don't ride on them much, while 175 miles of road riding just this last weekend would suggest otherwise.

I ride on 50 mph roads with no shoulder fairly often in MA. I would probably not ride as far out into the road as you do in that situation, but I really haven't found that too problematic. The 55 mph roads I refer to, generally in NH, are probably moving at somewhat closer to 70 mph. This is the Live Free or Die state, the black pickup trucks are very often driven with quite a bit of attitude. I will likely not just get honked at if I try those roads your way.

And yes, that regional perspective affects my judgment of what is or isn't prudent. I have never dealt with anywhere near as much driver hostility towards bicyclists anywhere outside of NH and north central MA..

holytrousers

I said "invalid here".
Roads and driving habits differ between states, towns, neighborhoods, streets : you don't need to remind me that roads and driving habits are different in different countries.
Your should have been saying this to everyone on this forum who didn't ride on the exact same roads as you. But as far as i can see, people you've discussed with in this thread are from different states, and their unfamiliarity with the roads you use never bothered you.
Incoherence.

Dude, that have a bit of courage, i say it to myself everytime i go out : these roads are much more hostile than your roads are. Don't take everything personnally.
Besides, nobody here denigrated you, on the contrary : i admitted that i am the inexperienced rider asking you for some advice.

You have been saying that roads are dangerous and messy immediately after having accused VC proponents of spreading the image that cycling is very dangerous
Self-contradiction.

Thanks for the cookie.
That "blanket statement" was to illustrate why sharing the lane scared people to death and how a more intelligent positioning in the lane could be much safer though riskier in appearance.
I have, actually, multiple times. Just compare both tones : mine really stands out in kindness
BTW, when i asked if you ever took the lane, that was a honest question, i never implied you were timid. Taking the lane when turning left or overtaking a turning or stationed car wasn't what i had in mind : AlmostTrick and DrIsotope examples are what i meant when i asked you that question.

I hope you're reading this ... i never pictured you as some sort of ostrich to bury your head in the sand. We are on the same side here (everywhere actually) and these places are meant to share and learn from each other, not to fight or show off who dominates whom.
Anyway, thanks for your time and you can thank me for mine... and after that's said, forget it