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Wheel options for 126mm freewheel

Old 08-12-20, 01:03 PM
  #26  
VinceInSeattle
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I thought I'd circle back to this post and tell you what I decided to do. I measured the drop-out with a caliper and it comes to 127.8 mm. Took the bike to a local shop and they let me put in a 130 mm wheel. I honestly didn't like the spreading of the frame - it was fiddly to get it in there and I just didn't like the idea of the stress on the frame. So I asked them to re-space the wheel to 128 mm and re-dish. After struggling on 17 miles of relentless uphill last weekend in Olympic National Park, I decided to trade in my 6-speed 24T freewheel for an 8-speed 32T cassette. But that required a new derailleur and new, longer chain. So it's been an expensive adventure so far, but I expect it will ride easier, brake much better, and be more serviceable. I really like the idea of switching to brifters sometime in the future and a new front wheel would be nice too, but for now, it will be friction downtube shifting for me. The service guy asked me if my riding needs had changed. I told him, "I'm not 28 like when I bought this bike!" (I'll be 60 this year.)

Thanks for the comments, I learned something new every time I re-read this thread, after more research that let me understand it better.
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Old 08-12-20, 03:40 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by cpach
First thing I'd do is cut the existing spokes out and see if the rim is straight without tension. If it is, there's no other sign of damage, and wear is acceptable, it's fine to reuse.
Noooooooo!
Well, maybeeee!

First, get yourself a freewheel removal tool and remove the freewheel. Or have the LBS do it. Then you're free to cut any spoke you want. If you cut the spokes before removing the freewheel, you likely have bricked the hub AND the freewheel. Getting a 30 year old freewheel off a hub without spokes is going to be an exercise in advanced free-form metal bending.

But I agree, if, once your freewheel is off and the rim is separated from the hub, you can test it. If there's not excessive wear on the brake surfaces, and if the rim lays flat on a very flat surface, and if you like it, you can probably reuse it.
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Old 08-12-20, 03:46 PM
  #28  
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Yea, my Cannondale with the 128 spacing is a little tougher than my steel bikes with the 126 spacing to get a 130 wheel in. Aluminum is stiff, steel is springy.
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Old 08-12-20, 05:53 PM
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This seems like a good thread to explain my current situation and plans. My wife has an 1991(?) Trek aluminum frame road bike that I'm pretty sure is using a 126mm OLD hub, as measured with a crappy, plastic Fisher Scientific ruler. A few years back, I had our LBS lace up a new rear wheel with a HG freehub body for this bike, but I'm not sure if it will take more than 7 gears. I would like to upgrade this bike to use a 9 (or maybe 10) speed cassette, to allow a wider gear range. I did this exact thing to my old road bike, but that was a steel frame that I could cold-set. My plans for the Al frame bike at the moment:
  • measure the rear dropouts and OLD using digital calipers that should have arrived today and confirm the 126 mm measurement
  • attempt to fit a 9-speed cassette on the freehub body (cassette should arrive next week)
    • if the cassette fits, move on to upgrading the derailleurs & cranks to modern 105 level equipment
    • if the cassette does not fit:
      • order a new freehub body that will accept an 8/9/10 speed cassette
      • adjust the spacers on the rear axle to give adequate space for the new cassette (there is a large spacer on the left side of the axle; I'm pretty sure I will need only a few mm moved from the left side to the right side)
      • assemble the wheel and adjust the dish to re-center the rim in the bike frame
The biggest potential issue I can see at the moment is that according to miamijim's work, 16-18 mm of dish on the right side of the back wheel is "normal", and anything outside that range should be avoided. I think my plans will require dishing to less than 16 mm on the right side, but I also cannot find any credible sources that show this will be an issue. There is a lot of speculation and lots of well-reasoned hypotheses out there, but I can't find anything that shows either a lab or real-world test that is relevant. In fact, plenty of 10+ speed wheels seem to be built with much less than 16 mm of right-side dish.

What do you people think? Will it work?
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Old 08-12-20, 08:06 PM
  #30  
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Seems like OP solved the issue to their satisfaction, but for anyone else referencing this thread, I highly recommend IRD freewheels. They make 5, 6, and 7 speed high quality freewheels that go up to 32T. Quite often it's as easy as unscrewing the old one, and screwing on the new one. I had an old Peugeot bike with a 5 speed freewheel that was quite rough during shifting. Swapped it with a 6 speed IRD, and since the shifters were friction, I didn't have to do much else. Bike shifted beautifully after the swap and had a nice 32T cog for hills.
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Old 08-13-20, 04:03 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid
This seems like a good thread to explain my current situation and plans. My wife has an 1991(?) Trek aluminum frame road bike that I'm pretty sure is using a 126mm OLD hub, as measured with a crappy, plastic Fisher Scientific ruler. A few years back, I had our LBS lace up a new rear wheel with a HG freehub body for this bike, but I'm not sure if it will take more than 7 gears. I would like to upgrade this bike to use a 9 (or maybe 10) speed cassette, to allow a wider gear range. I did this exact thing to my old road bike, but that was a steel frame that I could cold-set. My plans for the Al frame bike at the moment:
  • measure the rear dropouts and OLD using digital calipers that should have arrived today and confirm the 126 mm measurement
  • attempt to fit a 9-speed cassette on the freehub body (cassette should arrive next week)
    • if the cassette fits, move on to upgrading the derailleurs & cranks to modern 105 level equipment
    • if the cassette does not fit:
      • order a new freehub body that will accept an 8/9/10 speed cassette
      • adjust the spacers on the rear axle to give adequate space for the new cassette (there is a large spacer on the left side of the axle; I'm pretty sure I will need only a few mm moved from the left side to the right side)
      • assemble the wheel and adjust the dish to re-center the rim in the bike frame
The biggest potential issue I can see at the moment is that according to miamijim's work, 16-18 mm of dish on the right side of the back wheel is "normal", and anything outside that range should be avoided. I think my plans will require dishing to less than 16 mm on the right side, but I also cannot find any credible sources that show this will be an issue. There is a lot of speculation and lots of well-reasoned hypotheses out there, but I can't find anything that shows either a lab or real-world test that is relevant. In fact, plenty of 10+ speed wheels seem to be built with much less than 16 mm of right-side dish.

What do you people think? Will it work?
Before you do that, as with the OP if you have 128 spacing in the rear just get a 130 wheel and then you can use any cassette you want. 126 spacing may not fit a 9sp cassette. There's a reason they went to 130, the cassette is just wider with the freehub to match. The first cog will be against the dropout or the freehub will extend too far over the locknut. You may be able to use 8 of 9 on a 7sp freehub. I don't like the idea of moving spacers around on an old wheel. Re-dishing an old wheel sounds like it could go terribly wrong. And then too, what if the spacers are necessary for clearance on the other side?

So if you have 128 spacing on that frame, take advantage of it and use a 130 wheel. It'll be tight but it will work. If it is 126 you likely won't be able to use 9sp, or it will just fit without any room to spare. And there is barely any room to spare with a 130 wheel. And with the thinner cogs of 11sp they still needed to steal an extra mm, 11speed wheels are 131, but they didn't spec it for the frame, you just squeeze it into the 130 spacing on most road bikes. There's this 1mm cassette spacer that you need to use with 10sp cassettes on 11sp hubs.
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Old 08-13-20, 04:21 AM
  #32  
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1. Use the same hub and rim, new nipples, have a wheel builder tension and true it.
^^^THIS^^^
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Old 08-13-20, 03:44 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by zacster
There's a reason they went to 130, the cassette is just wider with the freehub to match. The first cog will be against the dropout or the freehub will extend too far over the locknut. You may be able to use 8 of 9 on a 7sp freehub. I don't like the idea of moving spacers around on an old wheel. Re-dishing an old wheel sounds like it could go terribly wrong. And then too, what if the spacers are necessary for clearance on the other side?

You seem to be mis-understanding how the spacers work and the history of this wheel. This particular wheel was built only 7 years ago (using an older hub), and there is a large 5 mm spacer on the left side of the axle. If I replace that large spacer with a 2 mm spacer, and then add a set of 3 mm spacers to the right side of the axle, the hub body AND freehub will move 3 mm to the left. That will add clearance for a longer cassette, with the only unknown (at this point) being whether or not 3 mm of additional clearance will be enough to fit a 9-speed cassette. From what I've read elsewhere, most people that embark on this sort of adventure target moving 4 mm of spacers, but I don't know if that will be necessary.


I agree that re-dishing could go terribly wrong, but as I said earlier, I have seen no evidence to suggest that it will. I've built my own wheels before, so I have no reason to be intimidated by the process. The only uncertainty about re-dishing is not knowing how much dish will be okay for this wheel. My plan is to measure the before & after (assuming I need to re-dish), and then see how long it takes to break a spoke. If nothing breaks after 1 year/1000 miles, then I will consider the project a success.



Originally Posted by zacster

So if you have 128 spacing on that frame, take advantage of it and use a 130 wheel. It'll be tight but it will work. If it is 126 you likely won't be able to use 9sp, or it will just fit without any room to spare. And there is barely any room to spare with a 130 wheel. And with the thinner cogs of 11sp they still needed to steal an extra mm, 11speed wheels are 131, but they didn't spec it for the frame, you just squeeze it into the 130 spacing on most road bikes. There's this 1mm cassette spacer that you need to use with 10sp cassettes on 11sp hubs.

I really don't like the idea of adding unnecessary tension to a vintage, aluminum bike frame. I did not measure the rear dropouts last night due to playoff hockey and AEW Dynamite related reasons, but I should get it to it tonight. I'm going to try and get a bunch of measurements all at once and then double-check my plans for sanity. Even if the dropouts are 128 mm, I am not going to use a 130 mm wheel unless I can re-space the axle locknuts and cut off the excess axle length, just as miamijim did.

Last edited by BoraxKid; 08-14-20 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 08-14-20, 10:48 AM
  #34  
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Every wheel is different and this sounds like a custom job so all bets are off. If you have 10mm of extra spacers then you have plenty to space to play with, but I don't see how you'd have that much. On a standard 7sp hub you run out of room. On a 10sp Shimano hub you run out of room for 10sp Campy if you want to do a conversion. It just doesn't fit. I did put a 10sp Campy spaced cassette together to work on an 11sp hub and that had the extra needed. If you can make it fit, great. The thing with re-dishing is that if the rim has been stressed a certain way for 30 years it could just taco if you re-stress it differently. But yours isn't that old so maybe not a problem. And if you've built your own then you know what needs to be done.

The thing with the tension on the frame is that these 128 frames were made to accept a 130 wheel. They come from the transition period so the manufacturer can use either. I've stressed a 126 steel frame for a 130 wheel and it's been working for about 15 years at this point. I think that's long enough to declare success. I understand the discomfort with aluminum though, I felt that way myself, but that was also when I thought it was 126. When I measured 128 I figured why not? It has only been this way for a few months so we'll see.
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Old 08-14-20, 11:20 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by zacster
Every wheel is different and this sounds like a custom job so all bets are off. If you have 10mm of extra spacers then you have plenty to space to play with, but I don't see how you'd have that much. On a standard 7sp hub you run out of room. On a 10sp Shimano hub you run out of room for 10sp Campy if you want to do a conversion. It just doesn't fit. I did put a 10sp Campy spaced cassette together to work on an 11sp hub and that had the extra needed. If you can make it fit, great. The thing with re-dishing is that if the rim has been stressed a certain way for 30 years it could just taco if you re-stress it differently. But yours isn't that old so maybe not a problem. And if you've built your own then you know what needs to be done.

I actually measured things last night; the dropouts are definitely 126 mm spaced. The spacer that I thought looked very large is a 5 mm spacer (edited my earlier post to reflect that). According to what I've read elsewhere, that should be enough room to move the hub body and freehub over to give clearance for a 9 or 10 speed cassette. Amazon says the cassette and rear derailleur I ordered have shipped, so I should be able to confirm that the axle needs to be re-spaced after the weekend. In the meantime, I think I'll just go ahead and order the new freehub body and plan on swapping that out when the rest of the drivetrain components have arrived.


Originally Posted by zacster

The thing with the tension on the frame is that these 128 frames were made to accept a 130 wheel. They come from the transition period so the manufacturer can use either. I've stressed a 126 steel frame for a 130 wheel and it's been working for about 15 years at this point. I think that's long enough to declare success. I understand the discomfort with aluminum though, I felt that way myself, but that was also when I thought it was 126. When I measured 128 I figured why not? It has only been this way for a few months so we'll see.

Yeah, if it were a steel frame, or if this bike was actually 128 mm and not 30 years old, I might approach things differently. Part of the reason I feel good about re-dishing the wheel is because I know the spokes and rim are only 7 years old and that this bike has seen limited use in that time.


The main motivation for adding a 9-speed drivetrain is that my wife was unable to ride this bike for the last year or two because of its stupidly aggressive design. When I met her (8 years ago), she was riding a 52/36 with 11-21t x 7 speed cassette, in an area with very hilly terrain. We worked with a friend at a bike shop to get her a compact crankset, but the best we could find for the cassette was 13-26t. In the last couple of years, the aggressive racing position, lack of low gears, and hilly terrain (combined with her love of crossfit), have done a number on her knees & back. She's been doing a lot of work off the bike to rehab her joints, get more flexible, and gain more core strength, but it's clear we needed to change some things on the bike to avoid re-aggravating her injuries. This bike also has a lot of sentimental value, and we're not quite ready to make it an art piece hanging on the wall.

Now that we live somewhere with a lot of flat terrain with some nice climbing available, we decided to overhaul everything. To make the bike rideable for her again, we re-evaluated her position on the bike, changed the stem & saddle (went from 3~4 inches of saddle to bar drop to about 1 inch), and decided to modernize the drivetrain. She said the first couple of test rides in the new position felt great, so I think we're moving in the right direction.

The next step is getting her some lower gears by trying to fit a cassette with a 32t cog. Updating to modern cranks should also give her the option of smaller chainrings, if needed, but we're doing this one or two steps at a time. The ideal outcome here is to end up with a 9-speed 105 drivetrain that has a compact crankset (50/34t) with an 11-32t cassette. A stretch goal is to get a 10-speed drivetrain on this old frame, but I'm not going to hold my breath for that one.

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Old 08-14-20, 11:56 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid
I actually measured things last night; the dropouts are definitely 126 mm spaced. ..... The ideal outcome here is to end up with a 9-speed 105 drivetrain
If that's what you are after then the easiest thing to do would be to do a '9 of 10 on 7'. In other words, use a 10 speed drive train, but omit the smallest cog of the 10 speed cassette- turning it into a 9 speed cassette, which will fit onto the 7 speed freehub body.

You can also do what you are doing and narrow a 130mm hub and re-dish. But keep in mind that you are re-dishing in the 'wrong' direction- you are exacerbating the asymmetrical spoke tension.

Last edited by icemilkcoffee; 08-14-20 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 08-14-20, 12:39 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee
If that's what you are after then the easiest thing to do would be to do a '9 of 10 on 7'. In other words, use a 10 speed drive train, but omit the smallest cog of the 10 speed cassette- turning it into a 9 speed cassette, which will fit onto the 7 speed freehub body.
I'm aware that I could do a 9-of-10 setup, but for reasons I won't bother to explain, I'm not going to take that approach. I'm going to try re-spacing an OEM 126 mm wheel to fit the larger cassette.

Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee
You can also do what you are doing and narrow a 130mm hub and re-dish. But keep in mind that you are re-dishing in the 'wrong' direction- you are exacerbating the asymmetrical spoke tension.
Yes, this is probably my back-up plan, even though I really don't want to go this route. Also, as I said in my earlier posts, I have seen nothing to confirm that there actually is a 'wrong' direction for re-dishing. Plenty of asymmetrical wheels exist in the bicycle component market, and my plans should require only a slight adjustment of the wheel dish. I've read plenty of posts that say I will be 'weakening' the wheel, but none provide a quantitative explanation, nor do they provide rigorous test results that show any real danger to this approach. I fully expect that by careful management of spoke tension, the wheel will not be significantly weakened by re-dishing to accommodate the longer cassette. If all goes well, I will find out if I'm right somewhere in the next 12 months.
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Old 08-14-20, 01:04 PM
  #38  
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The other thing you could do is replace the rim with an off-center one, but you seem convinced that you could make what you have work so give it a try. I do a lot of things that aren't supposed to work too. When I first tried the 10sp wheel/cassette with friction everybody said it wouldn't work, or you'll have this problem or that problem. But it works, no problem.
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Old 08-14-20, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by zacster
The other thing you could do is replace the rim with an off-center one, but you seem convinced that you could make what you have work so give it a try. I do a lot of things that aren't supposed to work too. When I first tried the 10sp wheel/cassette with friction everybody said it wouldn't work, or you'll have this problem or that problem. But it works, no problem.
I would definitely prefer to just build a new wheel for my wife's bike than to rely on the 8-of-9 bodge. That's also on my list of back-up plans.

That's awesome that you got 10-speed friction shifting to work! I previously tried 9-speed friction shifting on my old road bike (vintage steel frame), but it never worked right. It would always ghost shift, even with the friction adjustment maxed out. I finally bit the bullet and went for indexed 9-speed Dura Ace downtube shifters. That solved the problem permanently. It sounds like you had better friction shifters than whatever I was using before I bought the DA.
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Old 08-14-20, 04:11 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by VinceInSeattle
Are you resizing the spacers or just jamming the 130mm in there? Are you changing the whole drive train or just sticking a 6 or 7 speed cassette on there with the same derailleur, chain, and shifters? I would be perfectly happy to stay with 6 or 7 gears if I could get away with not having to change everything.
Just jam a 130mm wheel in there, and then you can use all sorts of 8, 9, 10 speed cassettes. I have several bikes set up that way. 2 with full 10 speed drivetrains (1980s Cannondale & a steel frame) & 2 with friction downtube shifters and 10 speed cassettes (also 1980s Cannondale & a steel frame)
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Old 08-14-20, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Homebrew01
Just jam a 130mm wheel in there, and then you can use all sorts of 8, 9, 10 speed cassettes. I have several bikes set up that way. 2 with full 10 speed drivetrains (1980s Cannondale & a steel frame) & 2 with friction downtube shifters and 10 speed cassettes (also 1980s Cannondale & a steel frame)
No, I don't think I will. As I said earlier:

Originally Posted by BoraxKid
I really don't like the idea of adding unnecessary tension to a vintage, aluminum bike frame.


If you're not going to read the whole thread, please don't reply.
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Old 08-14-20, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid
No, I don't think I will. As I said earlier:

If you're not going to read the whole thread, please don't reply.
No need to get snippy. I was replying to Vince in Seattle. Also, others may benefit from an on topic post in the discussion.
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Old 08-14-20, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Homebrew01
No need to get snippy. I was replying to Vince in Seattle. Also, others may benefit from an on topic post in the discussion.
Nice edit. Vince signed off 2 days ago. Your post was late to the party and just parroted others' advice anyway.
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Old 08-14-20, 05:35 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by VinceInSeattle
I thought I'd circle back to this post and tell you what I decided to do. I measured the drop-out with a caliper and it comes to 127.8 mm. Took the bike to a local shop and they let me put in a 130 mm wheel. I honestly didn't like the spreading of the frame - it was fiddly to get it in there and I just didn't like the idea of the stress on the frame. So I asked them to re-space the wheel to 128 mm and re-dish. After struggling on 17 miles of relentless uphill last weekend in Olympic National Park, I decided to trade in my 6-speed 24T freewheel for an 8-speed 32T cassette. But that required a new derailleur and new, longer chain. So it's been an expensive adventure so far, but I expect it will ride easier, brake much better, and be more serviceable. I really like the idea of switching to brifters sometime in the future and a new front wheel would be nice too, but for now, it will be friction downtube shifting for me. The service guy asked me if my riding needs had changed. I told him, "I'm not 28 like when I bought this bike!" (I'll be 60 this year.)

Thanks for the comments, I learned something new every time I re-read this thread, after more research that let me understand it better.
Last fall I was given a wheel, it's a Bontrager something something I don't know but it does use a freewheel. Stuck it aside then decided to use it with a dedicated tire for my wheel-on fluid trainer. Good idea but too wide and I didn't want to spread the frame because the idea was to avoid having to remove the trainer tire from the wheel if I want to ride it on the road not reconfigure my bike. I gave this matter a lot of thought and figured that replacing spacers and trimming the axle should work and cost little money. I had this mental block about putting money into this project.

I was able to swap out some spacers and had the machine shop where I work trim the axle. Once I got it back together even the flexible dust cap fits. It works on a trainer even with the dish out of wack but I did buy a dishing tool because I want to start building wheels because I need a new hobby. So because I was gifted the wheel, had a freewheel in my parts box and all of the labor was free and the spacers I had in my bunker, the thing works but I do now have a $50 Park dishing tool. Once the memory of that purchase fades I'm going to buy a Park Truing stand.TS 2.2.

My kids (adults that is) always ask me what to get me for Christmas so prolly the truing stand this year. Then I will need a few other items but could start with what I have even now but I'm going to wait until next spring to do my first wheel build. Oddly enough while most of my riding is on the road my first wheel build will probably be for my hybrid bike as I have at least two sets of wheels for all three of my road bikes but no extra sets for my hybrid.

Last edited by Thomas15; 08-14-20 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 08-14-20, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid
.. I have seen nothing to confirm that there actually is a 'wrong' direction for re-dishing. Plenty of asymmetrical wheels exist in the bicycle component market,
There is most definitely a wrong/bad direction for dishing. This is a fundamental design weakness in all multi-cogged bicycles- that the rear wheel sits off centered with respect to the hub flanges. When you put a 8+ speed freehub body on a 126mm hub, and move the hub further to the left, you are going to make the hub even more off centered with respect to the rim.

Now I myself did more or less the same thing recently- I changed a Shimano RSX 7 speed hub from its 130mm configuration, to the 126mm configuration. All it took was removing one 4mm spacer from the left side, and a shorter hollow axle, and a re-dishing of 2mm (in the wrong/bad direction). Now this was going from one factory configuration, to another factory configuration. What you are doing though, is beyond factory configuration.
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