rodar y rodar

Mostly just because I`m curious...

I`ve heard it said that it makes sense to go all out for hubs even if that means scrimping a bit on rims because the hubs are the meat and potatoes of a wheel, while the rims are simply consumables. But pricing seems (to me, at least) sort of contrary to that view. There are a few rims floating around in the $30-ish range, more in the $50-ish range, then a lot up around $70 or more, not counting high bling stuff. On the hub side of the story, Tiagra or Deore are the first in my mind for good dependale stuff that can be counted on to give long and happy service life, and they only run like $20 to $40 each.

Is my comparison skewed for comparing "low end" hubs to ritzy rims? Did hubs used to be much more expensive than rims in the dark ages? Are rims still looked at as disposeable even if they cost way more than hubs, which are permanent?

HillRider

There are indeed still "high end" hubs like Phil Wood, Chris King, White Industries and DT, whose costs dwarf the price of rims. Whether they are worth their huge upcharge over Shimano's mid-line or even Campy hubs is the subject of much debate.

Another consideration is how the wheel market has changed over the past few years with "pre-built" wheels dominating and building or rebuilding from components falling from favor. Current pricing has made buying a complete new wheel less expensive than having a hub you already own relaced with new spokes and a new rim unless it is a very premium priced hub.

Dave Mayer

In terms of performance, rims make the overwhelming difference. Frictional losses due to hubs are insignificant, and mid-range hubs such as Shimano 105 and LX are as good as anyone needs.

Shimano hubs feature a superior design relative to anything else out there, and are better sealed than any hub that I can think of. In hubs you want a removable freehub with the outboard bearings in the freehub itself, cold-forged hub shells and labrynth seals. Don't get sold on overpriced and overrated name brand cartridge bearing hubs. I have high-end boutique hubs sitting in boxes, but when I'm buidling a wheel for myself, I reach for the Shimano boxes.

Rims are the key performance issue. You want the lightest weight possible, the most aero and the strongest. And you want them cheap. Getting this all is impossible, so you have to make compromises. On flats at sustained speed, aero rules. On rolling terrain or start/stop traffic, you'll want as light as possible.

Tubular rims are far superior to clinchers due to the inherent design. They can be made stronger and lighter than equivalent clincher rims, so any discussion of a 'performance clincher' rims is somewhat meaningless. If your riding involves making money, then you'll be on tubulars.

jimc101

Your be riding on whoever sponsors you want you to; not what you want to. Tubeless tires are now been seen at ProTour level, with Europcar wining stages of the Tour de France on them.

Dave Mayer

Actually riding on them in completition? As in simply not just displaying the sponsored wheels/tires during team promo events and then swapping them out for carbon tubulars while racing? Perhaps some teams are riding them during second-teir races and meaningless flat stages, but hard to believe that riders would so significantly disadvantage themselves by not riding carbon tubulars.

Is suspect that teams are using the common label-swapping trick, in which they are all riding tubulars, but swap the labels on the tires that they actually ride to those of their sponsors. I've heard that the pro teams carry the gear to hot-stamp rubber labels for this purpose.

cyccommute 

But a hub can outlast dozens of rims. Paying more for something that you won't be replacing that often makes sense. As for Shimano having a superior design, that depends. I've never had a Shimano hub that is as smooth and drag free as the Phil Wood hubs I currently own and the White Industry hubs I have are even smoother. Add to that the decreased (or even lack of) maintenance, and the cartridge bearing hubs have real value.

Another advantage of the Phil Wood design is the ease of field service if you ever happen to wear the bearing out. The Phil Wood freehub body also comes out easily with disassembly, making drive side spoke replacement much easier.

rodar y rodar

That rims make much more difference than hubs I believe. That`s part of what confuses me- I should have thrown that into my post rather than the part about rims being (generally) more expensive component.

Although I get years out of a rim, even on the wheels I ride almost every day, I agree with that also. Even a $40 hub is nearly eternal.

But I still wonder if hubs used to be a lot higher priced in relation to rims, or if rims from days gone by wore much faster than modern ones. To be quite honest, bicycle hubs seem like an amazing bargain in today`s world.

chriskmurray

The cost of boutique hubs being worth it in the long run is very debatable and depends very much so on your riding style. For the average commuter the are certainly not the most cost effective way for a commuter to go but if you make it a habit of doing very long rides in remote areas, knowing you have a very high quality hub that is much less likely to fail suddenly seems like a great investment. I am by no means a strong rider but I ride a lot and have trashed probably 3-4 Shimano freehub bodies on my mountain bike. If you are riding mostly road they seem to last forever though.

Also know that cost does not always mean nicer quality with Mavic MTB freehubs which are crap, even the ones on $800 wheelsets.

Shimano does make some damn fine hubs for the money but they are in no way the best sealed or most durable hubs out there.

Dave Mayer

Old school hubs had next to no sealing. For example an old Record freewheel hub is by no means 'sealed'. So if you rode it hard in the rain and never maintained it, then would be dead in a year. However, if after every wet ride you spent 5 minutes injecting a little fresh grease into the (convenient) grease ports, it would last pretty much forever. I had a cheap Campy 'Tipo' hubset that was still going strong after 30 years until I traded it.

Fast forward: a current generation hub with so-called 'sealed' (which should be more accurately referred to as crappy cartridge) bearings will resist water intrusion and failure somewhat longer (2 years under the same conditions?), but are then far more challenging to service or to find replacement parts for. So when this hub invariably gets wet inside, the water stays in the cartridges until they are corroded solid. And then you'll have the possibily impossible challenge of digging the cartridges out and then combing the planet for some obscure cartridge bearing. Good luck.

I'm currently trying to dig out some bearings out of a Zipp wheel freehub that has gone stiff. Damned if I know how to get them out. Looks like the replacement freehub will cost about $200. If the owner had bought a Shimano hub, then I could go out to the back of my local shop and dig out a wrecked mountain bike wheel out of a big pile to get at the freehub. Freehub for free.

chriskmurray

Just because one does not understand something does not mean it is a bad system. Is there a reason you can not simply replace the bad bearings in the freehub instead of replacing the whole overpriced thing? Bearings are very cheap and easy to press in/out. If a hammer and punch does not get it you can always buy this tool. https://enduroforkseals.com/id61.html That same company has nearly every bearing ever used in a bicycle available as well...

With that being said, I have rebuilt countless cartridge bearing hubs and never needed more than a good socket set and a hammer/punch to rebuild them other than on King hubs. King hubs I use the tools because they are available to me but you can do a fair amount to King hubs without the special tools.

HillRider

I consider the "current generation" of hubs to include Shimano (ands the sole survivor of Campy's individual hub line) cup-and-cone bearing hubs with decent seals and grease lubing.

With only periodic (read yearly) maintenance, they will last for years and years and 10's of thousands of miles. Even the Tiagra-level hubs on my rain bike show no wear or damage after two years of nothing but abuse and only one overhaul. I have a pair of 7400-series Dura Ace hubs with over 50,000 miles and the original cones, races and freehub body are still in excellent condition. I also have a pair of Campy Chorus hubs with over 20,000 miles and at their last overhaul a couple of months ago were in perfect condition.

However, chriskmurray is correct that cartridge bearing hubs are straightforward to rebuild with only minimal tools. Replacement bearings are readily available from several industrial supply houses (Grainger, McMaster-Carr, etc.) at low cost. Remember, none of the hub builders make their own bearings (with the possible exception of Chris King) so standard industrial replacement bearings are available for nearly any of them.

cyccommute 

The ratio of rim cost to hub cost has been remarkably stable for as long as I can remember. Rim longevity hasn't changed that much either. Rims are, however, more susceptible to damage than hubs.

cyccommute 

You must have run across some really bad cartridge bearing hubs. I've had numerous cartridge bearing hubs and never experienced anything like what you are detailing especially from mountain biking, which is much harder on equipment than any other form of bicycling. I have, on the other hand, had to replace many, many, many cones and not a few hubs because the seals on 'sealed' cone and cup hubs failed to keep grit and water out of the hub. As HillRider says below, replacement bearings are fairly easy to come by for most cartridge bearing.

If cartridge bearings are so bad, why aren't cup and cones use for suspension pivots in mountain biking?

I've had one cartridge bearing fail in a set of Cannondale hubs...it got squeaky and I drove down to my local bike shop and was handed the replacement bearing over the counter. I've owned cartridge bearings from Suntour, Phil Wood, and White Industries and have never had to replace a sealed cartridge gearing for any reason.

On the flip side, I've owned cup and cone bearing units that I've had to trash because I couldn't find cone replacements. One of them was one of the 'superior' Shimano hub design. They changed axle sizes from the 130mm width XT to the 135mm width XT. Try finding one of those.

While I agree that you can keep a cone and cup hub running for a very long time on the road, sealed cartridge hubs with run for just as long in far worse conditions, i.e. off-road, with zero maintenance. While I have the skills to rebuild any cup and cone bearing, it's very nice not to have to practice those skills.

Kimmo

Hubs have next to zero relationship to performance; quality here is all about durability. Turns out some of the most durable (Shimano) can be had for cheap, so it's a no-brainer.

Unless you want hubs that will last a lifetime rather than just 20-30 years, Shimano is fine.

Cheap and light, slightly aero rim: Velocity's AeroHead.

Also, IMO use the narrowest tyres you can get away with not for the sake of rolling resistance, but to further reduce weight where it matters most. It'd prolly improve the aerodynamics on the front too; AeroHeads are a 19mm rim IIRC.

chriskmurray

That is a point I forgot to mention, finding replacement cones really can be a nightmare. You can find most any cartridge bearing in any bigger city. That is even if you have to replace them anyways. I have flushed out gritty cartridge bearings and repacked them with fresh grease and got another couple years out of them and this is on cheaper hubs. It is very very rare to have to replace the cartridge bearings in higher quality hubs like King, Phil, WI, Hope, etc. In 4 years in high volume bike shops I have had to replace the cartridge bearings in I believe 1 hope hub, a couple Industry Nine hubs and a fair number of generic house brand hubs. There have been plenty of wheels that have a know 10k miles plus that the bearings still feel great on, granted those are road wheels but I do not think a Shimano hub would feel great after 10k miles and no service.

chriskmurray

This is really only true about their road hubs. I have been through 3-4 Shimano freehub bodies on my mtb in about a 2 year period before I gave up and bought a "boutique" hub. A lot of my riding leaves me very far into the woods were walking out could take a couple days and there are not roads around. I want to do all I can to minimize the chance of a catastrophic failure like a freehub going bad. Granted there are little tricks like zip tying the cassette to the spokes to get you home but that is certainly not something I want to be banking on to get me out of the back country. Complete freehub failure rates are damn low in higher end ups, even when something goes bad (very rare) it usually still works well enough to get you to the nearest shop or back home.

davidad

[QUOTE=cyccommute;14896369]But a hub can outlast dozens of rims. Paying more for something that you won't be replacing that often makes sense. As for Shimano having a superior design, that depends. I've never had a Shimano hub that is as smooth and drag free as the Phil Wood hubs I currently own and the White Industry hubs I have are even smoother. Add to that the decreased (or even lack of) maintenance, and the cartridge bearing hubs have real value.

Another advantage of the Phil Wood design is the ease of field service if you ever happen to wear the bearing out. The Phil Wood freehub body also comes out easily with disassembly, making drive side spoke replacement much easier.[/QUOTe


Hate to burst your bubble, but they are an inferior design with inboard right bearings. Smooth in your fingers means nothing. The Phils are heavy because they are machined from a block of aluminun rather than forged. Forging makes for a stronger lighter hub.

davidad

What is your maintaince schedule on the shimnao hubs?

Dave Mayer

Amen. I have 7400 hubs as well that refuse to die. To summarize my experiences with the traditional 'cup 'n cone' vs: cartridge bearing hubs:

Positives with Shimano cup 'n cone:

• Shimano hubs have an indefinite lifespan if serviced on a regular basis
• Shimano hubs are generally better sealed against water intrusion than cartridge-bearing hubs
• The freehub can be replaced - for free or next to it. Your local shop has a pile of mountain bike wheels wrecked from curb jumping from which the freehubs can be scavenged.
• The cones can be obtained from salvaged hubs or for cheap from Ebay or the catalogues. You can get a complete 7400 axle assembly new for about $20. Shimano hub parts are available everywhere.
• The balls are standard sizes that can be sourced for a couple of bucks per wheel
• The ball cups can be replaced too. I have punched these out an replaced these on Dura-Ace hubs.

Negatives with crappy cartridge-bearing hubs:

• The air-dams on the cartridges were never meant to keep water out of the insides. In fact, due to wicking, they may encourage water to get inside. Once the water gets inside the catridges, it stays there until the bearings are a rusted mess.
• The cartridges may not be possible to get out due to special manufacturing processes. I have pulled dozens of catridges out of dozens of hubs in my day, but some simply are not meant to be extracted. Or the extraction requires expensive custom tools, or for the hubs to be returned to the maker.
• When you try to find new catridges - what then..? You're going to pour through catalogues to source some obscure 6076 X2RS bearing only made in in small batches by Buddhist monks in Nepal? If cartridge bearings are so supposed to be so standardized, then why do some manufacturers insist on spec'ing crazy rare bearings?
• Why will your local shop charge you $25 for a pair of cartridges that you should be able to buy wholesale for $5.
• When you try and extract them, the cartridges will be corroded shut into the hub shells
• Or the hub shells will be ovalized and the cartridges cannot seat correctly. Possibly this is due to an impact or improper installation or extraction.

Anyway, Mid-range Shimano hubs are the solution. The boutique hubs are simply an expensive and misguided vanity.

Kimmo

What Dave said.

I have a 24h Campy G3 rim laced to a Deore LX hub

chriskmurray

usually around every 6 months. If you read my post you would see the issue was not with the bearings but rather with their freehub which is a sealed unit.

Kimmo

The freehub is serviceable.

Crack the cup (left-hand thread) with a suitably-sized bit of steel plate and with the cassette body mounted to the hub (and wheel).

Remove the cassette body before disassembly.

To reassemble, sit the inner balls on their cone in a fillet of grease, and install the shims before replacing the outer balls. It's 2x25 of em.

chriskmurray

Exactly, their road hubs are fantastic. Try putting some hard riding/racing miles on a mountain bike with them and get back with me about their freehubs....
This is certainly not the case with quality cartridge bearing hubs, or really true at all on Shimano mtb hubs, they generally have 2 wimpy rubber seals which are more than sufficient on the road but in harsh conditions mountain bikes see...
What good does it do when you are 30 miles+ into the back country and your freehub fails? I will stick with proven designs with exceptionally low freehub failure rates like King, Hope, DT, WI, Phil
Shimano hub parts are everywhere but you have to be able to find the right cones for your application because Shimano did a number of different styles, how many hardware stores will carry Shimano cones?
The seals on a cartridge bearing are no better/worse than what Shimano gives you. The nice thing about cartridge hubs is that if you really want to go nice you can even upgrade your hubs to bearings that are meant to stay sealed even while submerged in water like Phil Wood uses
If it was pressed in, it can be pressed back out, you just lack the tools or know how to get it done but lets be honest here. It is not very common to have to replace them anyways...
Or head to your LBS, a quick search online, or most bigger cities have bearing supply houses that have almost every bearing you could need in stock or a couple days away. Worst case you call the manufacter and tell them you want to buy bearings.
Because they probably paid $15+ to get you quality bearings instead of the bottom of the barrel ****ty ones you keep *****ing about.
This has never been a problem for me in the countless hubs I have serviced and most of my time as a mechanic was in an area that has very high humidity and lots of rain mixed with customers who are not afraid to spend all day riding in it.
Another thing that is highly unlikely, either way by this logic Shimano hubs loose this point because it is much easier for a hamfisted mechanic to trash Shimano hubs beyond repair than cartridge hubs.
Only in the road world.

chriskmurray

Let me re-phrase that. Shimano tells you not to so for what they consider a sealed part it should last more than 6 months and Morningstar is the only place I know that sells new dust seals if you mess up the factory ones. Either way the rate I was going through freehubs was ridiculous service or not.

Kimmo

Gotta admit, I'd like to see aftermarket cassette bodies for Shimano hubs...