Raleigh - is it a Grand Prix or a Super Course?
#1
WGB
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Niagara Region
Posts: 2,917
Bikes: Panasonic PT-4500
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1800 Post(s)
Liked 2,334 Times
in
1,378 Posts
Raleigh - is it a Grand Prix or a Super Course?
Raleigh - is it a Grand Prix or a Super Course?
Leaning towards GP but checking before I pass. Obviously a re-painted frame.
Owner claims it's an aluminum frame but that doesn't seem probable. Rims appear to be aluminum and take presta valves. No shifter bosses but only GPs and Super Courses I saw came with band-on shifters. I know that Super GP's had barcons. IIRC neither had an RD mount and both used hangers. Obviously it could be a found frame with built up parts.
Have added all the photos I could get.
Any thoughts???
Leaning towards GP but checking before I pass. Obviously a re-painted frame.
Owner claims it's an aluminum frame but that doesn't seem probable. Rims appear to be aluminum and take presta valves. No shifter bosses but only GPs and Super Courses I saw came with band-on shifters. I know that Super GP's had barcons. IIRC neither had an RD mount and both used hangers. Obviously it could be a found frame with built up parts.
Have added all the photos I could get.
Any thoughts???
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,701
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1136 Post(s)
Liked 650 Times
in
336 Posts
Definitely a steel frame
Nervar Star cranks. Specced on Raleighs when Stronglight couldn't supply enough cranks during the 70s Boom (just like with Schwinn and others).
I would expect the Suntour derailleurs to be Raleigh-branded if these are the OEM mechs but I'm no expert.
Nervar Star cranks. Specced on Raleighs when Stronglight couldn't supply enough cranks during the 70s Boom (just like with Schwinn and others).
I would expect the Suntour derailleurs to be Raleigh-branded if these are the OEM mechs but I'm no expert.
Last edited by TenGrainBread; 08-06-19 at 03:20 PM.
Likes For TenGrainBread:
#3
WGB
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Niagara Region
Posts: 2,917
Bikes: Panasonic PT-4500
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1800 Post(s)
Liked 2,334 Times
in
1,378 Posts
Good eye on the cranks, I definitely didn't see that! I also expected the Suntours to say Raleigh (if original) which, along with the repaint would fit with a frame built up with what ever was there. Still stuck on what it was originally.
Sorry Should have added Super Course Mk 2 to the possible choices.
Sorry Should have added Super Course Mk 2 to the possible choices.
Likes For WGB:
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Niagara Region, Canada
Posts: 1,455
Bikes: 1970s Alex Singer, 1960s Peugeot PX 10, 1960s Bertin C37, 1973 Carre Bertin C 37, 1972 Carlton Kermesse, 1981 Peugeot PX 14 Super Competition
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Liked 266 Times
in
157 Posts
WGB-
The flat plate stay caps say Super Course MK II especially when the plain lug style is factored in. A Super Grand Prix is possible but the head lugs look wrong for that and definitely not a plain Grand Prix as that would have had wrap over stay caps. Consider as well, that the MK II came with the Nervar Star as OEM fitment as a substitute for the Stronglight 93.
The flat plate stay caps say Super Course MK II especially when the plain lug style is factored in. A Super Grand Prix is possible but the head lugs look wrong for that and definitely not a plain Grand Prix as that would have had wrap over stay caps. Consider as well, that the MK II came with the Nervar Star as OEM fitment as a substitute for the Stronglight 93.
#7
WGB
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Niagara Region
Posts: 2,917
Bikes: Panasonic PT-4500
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1800 Post(s)
Liked 2,334 Times
in
1,378 Posts
Can't get sn as owner's son over-painted frame.
Was wondering if it was a Super Course and if it was might have grabbed it. Not sure enough value there to bother if it's an MK2, MK2 frames don't seem that popular though it has the crankset and the rim set. Owner wants $60 U.S. which might be a bit high since God knows if there is any damage under that paint job. Might go look at it and make an offer. Meanwhile I am trying to get a complete Super Course but owner hasn't returned my calls.
Was wondering if it was a Super Course and if it was might have grabbed it. Not sure enough value there to bother if it's an MK2, MK2 frames don't seem that popular though it has the crankset and the rim set. Owner wants $60 U.S. which might be a bit high since God knows if there is any damage under that paint job. Might go look at it and make an offer. Meanwhile I am trying to get a complete Super Course but owner hasn't returned my calls.
Last edited by WGB; 08-06-19 at 06:11 PM.
#8
feros ferio
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Posts: 21,796
Bikes: 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo; 1960 Capo Sieger (2); 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse; 1970 Peugeot UO-8; 1982 Bianchi Campione d'Italia; 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10;
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1392 Post(s)
Liked 1,324 Times
in
836 Posts
Nervar Star is a nice crankset. One can work around the PITA 128mm BCD by using a drill to elongate the holes in a 130mm chainring (been there ... done that).
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
#9
Phyllo-buster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,846
Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic
Mentioned: 133 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2297 Post(s)
Liked 2,054 Times
in
1,254 Posts
As noted, MkII's usually had Raleigh branded components. FWIW.
A close of of seat stay treatment should tell, Wrap arounds should be a GP.
Or scrape the paint away on the down tube to be if the 531 decal is there.
A close of of seat stay treatment should tell, Wrap arounds should be a GP.
Or scrape the paint away on the down tube to be if the 531 decal is there.
#10
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,513
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,391 Times
in
2,092 Posts
Perhaps the better question to ask:
Is the price low enough that it's worth it for the Nevar Star crankset?
Bocama lugs make me think Super Course as well. Would expect those fish-mouthed things the GP usually had (I know they're a standard pattern from a well-known lug company, but can't remember the model).
-Kurt
Is the price low enough that it's worth it for the Nevar Star crankset?
Bocama lugs make me think Super Course as well. Would expect those fish-mouthed things the GP usually had (I know they're a standard pattern from a well-known lug company, but can't remember the model).
-Kurt
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Greenwood SC USA
Posts: 2,252
Bikes: 2002 Mercian Vincitore, 1982 Mercian Colorado, 1976 Puch Royal X, 1973 Raleigh Competition, 1971 Gitane Tour de France and others
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 823 Post(s)
Liked 1,395 Times
in
694 Posts
What is the seat post diameter? Bocama lugs and Nervar Star don’t say Grand Prix or Super Course - I suspect it is a Gran Sport which is much nicer. Is that a 22.5-in frame? Gran Sport came in that size, GP and SC jumped from 21.5 to 23.5-in frames. I’ve seen some GS with the same crown used on SC, which is what I think I see in the pix.
GS is full Reynolds 531 butted as opposed to the 3 tube plain gauge of the SC.
GS is full Reynolds 531 butted as opposed to the 3 tube plain gauge of the SC.
Last edited by rustystrings61; 08-07-19 at 06:54 AM.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Greenwood SC USA
Posts: 2,252
Bikes: 2002 Mercian Vincitore, 1982 Mercian Colorado, 1976 Puch Royal X, 1973 Raleigh Competition, 1971 Gitane Tour de France and others
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 823 Post(s)
Liked 1,395 Times
in
694 Posts
Grand Prix used a Bocama lug pattern but I will wait till I am on a desktop tomorrow to research it. Super Courses used Bocama 14 type II in some sizes during the oval headbadge anniversary period. Grand Sports in the classic lagoon blue and white period used Bocama lugs (I’ll track down the model number tomorrow) from ‘73-76 but with different fork crowns.
#13
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,513
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,391 Times
in
2,092 Posts
-Kurt
#14
WGB
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Niagara Region
Posts: 2,917
Bikes: Panasonic PT-4500
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1800 Post(s)
Liked 2,334 Times
in
1,378 Posts
Thank you all!
I have - perhaps foolishly - become intrigued so I made an offer and said that should I buy it I will have a lot of time ahead of me locating era-correct parts followed by a lot of work building it back up and that if my offer was a bit low, that the seller could keep trying to sell but if he/she couldn't sell they could always reach back to me and that my offer would still stand.
That was before I realized that those Nevar Star cranks might be really fun to remove - see VeloBase.com - "Takes now obsolete 122mm BCD chainrings. These also took the more common english threaded removers. Be warned, earlier editions of the Nevar Star were 128m BCD and most likely have a different threading for the remover."
I have - perhaps foolishly - become intrigued so I made an offer and said that should I buy it I will have a lot of time ahead of me locating era-correct parts followed by a lot of work building it back up and that if my offer was a bit low, that the seller could keep trying to sell but if he/she couldn't sell they could always reach back to me and that my offer would still stand.
That was before I realized that those Nevar Star cranks might be really fun to remove - see VeloBase.com - "Takes now obsolete 122mm BCD chainrings. These also took the more common english threaded removers. Be warned, earlier editions of the Nevar Star were 128m BCD and most likely have a different threading for the remover."
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Greenwood SC USA
Posts: 2,252
Bikes: 2002 Mercian Vincitore, 1982 Mercian Colorado, 1976 Puch Royal X, 1973 Raleigh Competition, 1971 Gitane Tour de France and others
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 823 Post(s)
Liked 1,395 Times
in
694 Posts
My Nervar Star 128 bcd cranks take a standard 22 mm crank tool. There are rings out there, though sizes other than 40, 42, 52 and 54T may require going to French eBay like I just did in pursuit of a 44T ring. They are really nice overlooked cranks.
In a pinch you can modify 130 bcd c’rings to fit the 128 bcd Nervar by dremeling the holes inward 1 mm each. I’ve done it and it works and doesn’t look too bad.
if that turns out to be a full 531 Gran Sport and it fits you have a fun project to build. I keep waiting for a deal on a 23.5-in to come along at the right time.
In a pinch you can modify 130 bcd c’rings to fit the 128 bcd Nervar by dremeling the holes inward 1 mm each. I’ve done it and it works and doesn’t look too bad.
if that turns out to be a full 531 Gran Sport and it fits you have a fun project to build. I keep waiting for a deal on a 23.5-in to come along at the right time.
Likes For rustystrings61:
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Greenwood SC USA
Posts: 2,252
Bikes: 2002 Mercian Vincitore, 1982 Mercian Colorado, 1976 Puch Royal X, 1973 Raleigh Competition, 1971 Gitane Tour de France and others
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 823 Post(s)
Liked 1,395 Times
in
694 Posts
Updates - Raleigh used Bocama Professional lugs on Gran(d) Sport(s) c.1973-76. Nervar Star cranks with that funky chainguard were fitted to Gran Sports when Stronglight 93s weren't available - and I can't remember ever seeing Nervar Stars with that 'guard as OEM on any other bike. I would suggest gently trying to remove the blue and see what's under there. Based on what I think I see, I'm betting you'll have lagoon blue and white or white with lagoon blue accents.
You have the stock brakes, cranks, BB, stem and probably wheels. Those look like Normandy Sport hubs laced to Weinmann or similar 27-in alloy rims, and before the "replace all 27-in wheels with 700C for greater tire selection" chorus wakes up, a standard Panaracer Pasela 27 x 1 1/4 at 70 lbs or so is a wonderful experience. For better results, use the Frank Berto tire pressure method as programmed here and be shocked at how buttery smooth a ride you get with no real loss of speed. Service the Normandy hubs - I have been shocked by how well they really can run. The SunTour derailleurs were/are a sensible upgrade/replacement for the original Simplex stuff. The Gran Sport came stock with the Simplex Maxy, a wide-range Prestige.
The seller probably thinks it's aluminum because it's Reynolds tubing.
You have the stock brakes, cranks, BB, stem and probably wheels. Those look like Normandy Sport hubs laced to Weinmann or similar 27-in alloy rims, and before the "replace all 27-in wheels with 700C for greater tire selection" chorus wakes up, a standard Panaracer Pasela 27 x 1 1/4 at 70 lbs or so is a wonderful experience. For better results, use the Frank Berto tire pressure method as programmed here and be shocked at how buttery smooth a ride you get with no real loss of speed. Service the Normandy hubs - I have been shocked by how well they really can run. The SunTour derailleurs were/are a sensible upgrade/replacement for the original Simplex stuff. The Gran Sport came stock with the Simplex Maxy, a wide-range Prestige.
The seller probably thinks it's aluminum because it's Reynolds tubing.
#17
WGB
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Niagara Region
Posts: 2,917
Bikes: Panasonic PT-4500
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1800 Post(s)
Liked 2,334 Times
in
1,378 Posts
Seller reached back and made a counter offer of $45. Will have to think about it because I have five (5) frames now, including one I have to show Bertinjim before I make any plans for new toys (and this one doesn't fit). 1st world worries.
#18
multimodal commuter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Posts: 19,808
Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
Mentioned: 584 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1908 Post(s)
Liked 574 Times
in
339 Posts
The Raleigh Grand Prix of the 70's used Carlton Crespera lugs. They are pretty distinctive, though other manufacturers made similar lugs. But the photo of the head tube in the first post shows that the bike in question does not have those lugs. Compare:
https://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/...m/PB030059.jpg
Also, it does not look like this bike has the wrapover seat stays characteristic of the Grand Prix.
So the frame is not Grand Prix, and the crank is not one found on a Grand Prix. It might be a Super Course, I don't know those well enough to say. But it's not a Grand Prix.
https://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/...m/PB030059.jpg
Also, it does not look like this bike has the wrapover seat stays characteristic of the Grand Prix.
So the frame is not Grand Prix, and the crank is not one found on a Grand Prix. It might be a Super Course, I don't know those well enough to say. But it's not a Grand Prix.
__________________
www.rhmsaddles.com.
www.rhmsaddles.com.
#19
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,502
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7348 Post(s)
Liked 2,464 Times
in
1,433 Posts
@rhm is right that it's not a Grand Prix. It's probably a Super Course but could be a Gran Sport. The derailleurs are not original. The crank probably is.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Madison, WI USA
Posts: 6,154
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2363 Post(s)
Liked 1,749 Times
in
1,191 Posts
Gran(dish) Sport(syish) would have forged dropouts, no?
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Greenwood SC USA
Posts: 2,252
Bikes: 2002 Mercian Vincitore, 1982 Mercian Colorado, 1976 Puch Royal X, 1973 Raleigh Competition, 1971 Gitane Tour de France and others
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 823 Post(s)
Liked 1,395 Times
in
694 Posts
Not the '73-76 variety - though some (I want to say 25.5-in) came with stamped Zeus dropouts with integrated derailleur hangers. Most of them came with dropouts similar to those used on Super Courses. I think the early ones from the late 60s-72 used Huret forged rear ends, like the ones used on Competitions, but there weren't too many of those.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Berea, KY
Posts: 1,135
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
Liked 323 Times
in
186 Posts
The Raleigh Grand Prix of the 70's used Carlton Crespera lugs. They are pretty distinctive, though other manufacturers made similar lugs. But the photo of the head tube in the first post shows that the bike in question does not have those lugs. Compare:
https://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/...m/PB030059.jpg
https://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/...m/PB030059.jpg
__________________
Andy
Andy
#23
Full Member
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: WNY
Posts: 444
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked 313 Times
in
162 Posts
WGB-
I saw that listing too and I'm intrigued by it. If you don't want it, let me know. I can also swing by and pick it up for you if you wish.
-Dan
I saw that listing too and I'm intrigued by it. If you don't want it, let me know. I can also swing by and pick it up for you if you wish.
-Dan
#24
Señor Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hardy, VA
Posts: 17,923
Bikes: Mostly English - predominantly Raleighs
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1491 Post(s)
Liked 1,090 Times
in
638 Posts
What's going on with the dropout with the derailleur claw on it. Is that dirt? Shadow? Crack?
__________________
In search of what to search for.
In search of what to search for.
#25
Phyllo-buster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,846
Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic
Mentioned: 133 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2297 Post(s)
Liked 2,054 Times
in
1,254 Posts