27inch

About two months ago I picked up two project bikes, one a 1977 Raleigh Super Course, the other a 1978 Raleigh Super Grand Prix. Both bikes have 25 1/2" frames. The Raleigh Super Course frame is labeled Reynolds 531, and Carlton on the seat tube and has plain stamped dropouts. The SGP has no tubing decal. Both use a 68mm bsa threaded bottom bracket, and both forks look identical in all but color. The SGP was supposedly new old stock, it was bought by a guy who wanted all the parts for his smaller frame bike. I got it as just the frame with all his used parts.

The SC has Cyclone derailleurs, the SGP has VXGT Raleigh scripted derailleurs, both are alloy and similar except for the cage length.
Both have a 14-28 Suntour freewheel, both have square taper, Raleigh scripted cranksets with alloy chain rings, the SC cranks have Raleigh engraved into the aluminum, the SGP has a decal, otherwise they look identical. Both are swaged type cranks.

The SC has LF Atom hubs, the SGP has HF Normandy hubs, both use QR hubs front and back.
The SC has a Brooks padded Leather saddle, the SGP has a Selle Royale padded leather saddle.

Both use Weinmann concave 700C grommeted rims and straight gauge spokes.

Both use Weinmann CP calipers, 650 reach in the front, 750mm in the rear. The SGP calipers are Raleigh labled but otherwise the same.

Both use a 26.4mm SR (Raleigh Scripted seat post)

Both use Suntour barcon shifters with stainless cable casings.

Both use 110mm stems, the SC has GB World scripted bars and a GB stem, the SGP has Raleigh scripted bars and stem that appear to be made by SR.

All in all, the two bikes are pretty identical.
I have both completely apart for a full cleaning and regrease this winter, out of curiosity I weighed both frames, which appear identical other than their decals and both weigh exactly the same on my postage scale. Both are dead on at 3.67lbs each.

Both had vintage Raleigh scripted tires, the SGP had gumwalls, the SC had skinwalls. Both were likely the original tires. I'm not sure what tire I'll be putting on these but both are getting new rubber. The SGP will get a fresh set of wheels built from all new old stock parts but with stainless spokes. The SC wheels are in nice shape and I will stay with the originals.

The geometry appears identical, both have identical forks as well. I have little doubt that without paint or decals you couldn't tell the two apart.

I read somewhere that the SGP should have a 70mm Raleigh BB with 26tpi threads but its got a standard 68mm wide 24tpi bb, that appears identical to the SC frame.


Both bikes seem to ride the same, but I have a slight preference for the SGP, which shifts a bit better and seems to roll a bit easier but that's part of the reason for the complete winter tear down and rebuild.


If the SGP is plain steel, and the SC is supposedly 531 tubing in the main triangle, where's the advantage to the better bike? I realize these are a year apart but it certainly appears Raleigh just took the old SC frame and use it to build the 1978 SGP? The two bikes weigh in nearly identical, with the difference in weights likely being tires and saddles.

52telecaster

if they have the same 26.4 seatpost i would guess they are both straight gauge reynolds 531.

nlerner

Hmm, something is a little wacky there as the 1978 Raleigh catalog lists the SPG as having a 25.4mm seat post, which would be consistent with its listed 20-30 hi-ten steel frame tubes (though the listed weight for the SC and the SPG is both 26 lbs).

dddd

Are both of these frames perhaps made in Japan? I suspect so.


The Raleigh 26tpi bb standard never made it to the Japan builds, thankfully! The Japan bikes were much better brazed and aligned as well.


Neither of these big frames should weigh anywhere near to 3.67lbs, more like 5-6+lbs, and of course even straight-gage Reynolds 531 main tubes would be very measurably lighter than the hi-tensile main tubes used in a Super Grand Prix.

repechage

If you cannot feel the difference, then they are interchangeable. I would consider setting one up in a different manner, fenders, racks, flat bars even.

John E

Both sound pretty nice to me.

elcraft

The Carlton marked frame would have been made in Worksop, UK-not Japan! The SGP would be a nicely made Japanese Hi-Ten frameset; whereas the SC would be Reynolds 531 straight gauge main tubes and hi-ten forks and stays. The Worksop made frames were inconsistent in build quality, but the SCs generally were a bit more consistent than the rest. The BB threading would be English standard; the fork/ Headset are probably Raleigh proprietary 26 tpi threading. Personally, I think the SC has more cachet and slightly better frame materials, but it will have those quirks of a 70's era Raleigh. The SC will be a very comfortable ride and a tad lighter.

52telecaster

could the sgp have been high tension if it takes a 26.4 seatpost? just wondering.

top506

It's been a while since I had a similar vintage SGP, but I do remember it had a Worksop serial #.

Top

27inch

The SC has a Carlton seat post decal, the SGP says Nottingham on it.
Both have 68cm 24tpi bottom brackets
Both came with 26.4mm SR Laprade seat posts with the Raleigh script on them.
Both bikes weigh in exactly the same with their forks and headsets installed.
Both headsets appear identical.
The SC is a 1977 The SGP is a 1978

The only real differences I can see is the derailleur models, decals, and the hubs. The bars, stem, and all else are the same.
It sort of looks like a case were as they had a run of the old SC frames left over and they came up with a new model to use them up the following year.

There really isn't a big difference in my opinion in the derailleurs either, the alloy Suntour VX wasn't much different than the Cyclone models, other than the SGP having Raleigh Script on the derailleur, there's not that much difference. The assembled bikes had to be very similar in weight.
The crank arms on the SGP have Raleigh scripted decals on each arm, the SC has Raleigh engraved or cast into the arm itself. Both use alloy chain rings and a Suntour freewheel. I also just noticed that the SGP does not have grommets on the rims like the SC does but it has small washers under each spoke nipple.

USAZorro

My understanding is that the SGP is a Grand Prix frame, fork and seat post, otherwise fitted with the same components as the Super Course (though possibly not the same saddle).

USAZorro

NO! The Super Course was made in either Nottingham (early) or Worksop (mid - late) during the 70's. The Nottingham built ones had the 26 tpi threading. The Worksop frames had 24 tpi.

qcpmsame 

I had a '78 Super Course, not made in Japan for certain. Very enjoyable bicycle all around, I'd buy another one if the chance came up and it was a smaller frame size.

Bill

nlerner

I don't think the Super Course was ever made in Nottingham, but I could be wrong. In Peter Kohler's article on the Carlton-Raleigh relationship, he notes the Carlton Catalina as the predecessor of the Super Course.

Fwiw, I've also found the BB threading to be maddeningly inconsistent on Super Courses. I've had lots: from a 1969 to late 70s, and there's really no pattern of which are 24 tpi and which are 26 tpi. Classic Raleigh inconsistency!

oldspokes

I've always been a big Raleigh fan. Around 1976 I bought a brand new bright red Super Course, in a 25.5" frame. It quickly became my favorite bike back then. About 5 years after buying it I began to have issues keeping the right BB cup tight. I took it to the local dealer where they torqued it with a long bar and added locktite but it didn't last. The BB shell was getting out of round, a problem I had on several other bikes over the years.
That started me looking for a replacement frame, at first I bought an early Trek frame but it never fit me was well as the Raleigh did. Then a buddy bought a Super Grand Prix used while away at school back then. The frame was too big for him so I found him a suitable frame and built him up a bike on a smaller Schwinn Letour frame I found. I took the SGP and used all my SC parts on it. The two frames were identical in every aspect other than color. Everyone told me that the BB would be different but the two were the same. The SGP got built up with the Suntour Cyclone. The only difference between the two was the rear derailleur, but on both of the two I dealt with the freewheels were Atom branded, not Suntour and the front derailleurs were both Suntour Comp V.
Back then we were pretty weight conscious, so as usual I weighed everything. I weighed both bikes, and ever last part on them. The two bikes were almost identical but the SC was heavier by about 4 ounces. I still have my notes which I just dug back out along with all my old bikes and my old parts stash. The Suntour VX GT was heavier than the short cage Cyclone, but likely only due to the length of the cage alone. I had no clue why they used the long cage derailleur on the SGP, and a short cage on the SC, both bikes had a 14-28 freewheel.
Now, with that said, I bought a new old stock SGP off eBay about 10 years ago, it was also a 1978 model, but in a smaller frame. My goal was to use its parts to freshen up my original bike. The bike I bought off eBay, although still a 1978 model and still made in England, had some different parts. The freewheel was a 14-34T Suntour Perfect, the derailleurs were the same, the wheels were Weinmann Concave rims WITH grommets, but with Sunshine high flange hubs not Maillard or Atom hubs. The bars and stem appeared the same, and the saddle on the NOS bike was unbranded suede not Selle Royale leather covered as on my old SC and SGP.

I think as time went on they slowly began using more Asian parts, and I believe by 1979 or 80 they were importing them from Asia altogether.
I'd say its totally possible that they used some left over SC frames to build the new model, I'm sure they didn't just throw away unused framesets when the model changed, as the SC did for 1978. (The SC gained forged dropouts for 1978). Where it was built, we may never know but I do remember my local bike shop owner complaining that he never knew what components any particular model might have back then, companies apparently regularly substituted parts all the time and made mid year changes that no catalog ever reflected.

Me and a buddy both bought 1976 Motobecane Grand Jubilee bikes early that year. (We both worked at the same bike shop for that summer). Both bikes were to be identical in that we both rode a 25" frame. I was at the bike shop the day the owner unboxed both bikes, one came out of the box with Huret Jubile derailleurs, a Pivo stem, and SR cranks. The other came out of the box with Cyclone derailleurs, an SR stem, and TA crankset. Both bikes were black with red trim. The bike with the Cyclone derailleurs was a higher serial number by 16 numbers than the other. (The dealer had ordered four bikes at the same time, we checked the other two, and they too were a different combo of the same parts with one having a GB stem).

The shop owner was a bit upset because he said he caught a lot of grief from buyers who expected the bikes to be just like the catalog they looked at, but they rarely were. He offered to swap parts around to make both bikes the same, but I took the bike with the Cyclone derailleurs, my buddy took the bike with the Huret derailleurs. I eventually ended up with both bikes when he gave up riding several years later, and after having ridden both, the Cyclone derailleurs were the right choice. I sold the original Huret bits and made the two bikes the same. I sold both though years ago.

Don't sweat why or how its equipped, back in the day there was no rigid rule as to how the bike shipped from the factory and that little note in most catalogs saying that they reserve the right to make changes or "Specifications may vary" almost always held true back then whether due to parts supply, part changes, or catalog misprints. Some brands only changed the front cover of their brochures, using the same pics from year to year even though the bikes were evolving or changing. This was especially true of the smaller companies. East and west coast bikes also weren't always imported by the same people, meaning a bike bought new in CA, may not be the same as one bought in NY. I ran into that several times over the years. Bikes that made their way down from Canada were often different as well. I would say Raleigh and Schwinn were the least likely to differ because of their massive dealer networks but smaller brands were all over the place equipment wise.
As a rule of thumb, they only stuck to the catalog specs by general description, if it called for HF hubs, chances were good it came out of the box with HF hubs, but which brand was often potluck. As time went on, they got less specific in the catalogs as to specific brands. They would list a general size and maybe just Raleigh approved rims or similar. So whether or not the wheels got grommets or not, or what hubs it had was more up to chance than a fixed parts list.

USAZorro

Interesting. I thought that by the time the WN##### serial number were in use (1975?) that they were consistently 24 tpi. Also note that my motivation in responding initially was the suggestion that a late 70's Super Course might have been made in Japan. I've owned two '78s, and they were definitely made in England - albeit with a fair assortment of Sun Tour components.

rhm

I think this is an important point: if the frames are the same size, and look the same, and weigh the same, they must be made of the same material. But I'm sorry, I don't trust your scale.

I've weighed a lot of frames, and the lightest steel frame I've yet encountered, full butted 531, weighed 4.25 lbs; and that was a 23" frame.

I would expect a 25" Super Course frame to weigh in at about five pounds. Are they still disassembled?
Can you weigh them again, with a different scale maybe?

USAZorro

Also, I'd expect the seat post on the Super Course to be 26.8 - but it's possible that they went with thicker tubing in larger sizes. (21.5 is a near-perfect fit for me, can do 22.5 in a pinch.)

oldspokes

I've got three bare Super Course frames, two are 1977, one is 1978. All are 25.5" frames. I just weighed all three, plus a few other 63cm/25" frames I have here apart.
These were weighed on three shipping scales, one a Royal, the other a Poulize, the other a commercial USPS supplied Moser brand scale.
'78 SC weighs in at 4.89 lbs - Reynolds 531 26.4mm s/p
'77 SC weighs in at 4.99 lbs, - Reynolds 531 26.4mm s/p
'77 SC weighs in at 5.51 lbs - Reynolds 531 26.4mm s/p
'80 Trek 412 frame weighs 5.08 lbs Ishiwatta 022 26.8 mm s/p
'77 Nishiki International at 4.77 lbs - DB 4130 - 26.6 mm s/p
'77 Nishiki Custom at 4.97 lbs - no tubing decall - 26.2mm s/p
'80 Panasonic DX4000 (26" frame) 4.25 lbs - Champion #2 26.6 mm s/p
'80 Ross Gran Tour 7.01 lbs (black iron pipe?) 25 mm s/p
'75? Nishiki International 5.99 lbs "Finest Chromoly Tubing" 26.6mm s/p
'80 Ross Super Gran Tour 7.01 lbs (at least they're consistant). 25 mm s/p
'75 Nishiki Sport 21cm frame - 5.12 lbs - no tubing decal 26mm s/p
'67 Raleigh Sports 24" frame - 6.43 lbs - 25.4mm s/p
'74 Raleigh Sprite 23.5" frame - 6.06 lbs 25.4mm s/p
'77? Raleigh Sprite 23.5" frame - 6.31 lbs 25.4mm s/p
Each of these were bought new by me over the years with the exception of the 75 Nishiki International and the 78 SC. I bought the Ross SGT as a new old stock bike for its full Shimano 600EX group. The frame has been hanging in the basement here for 15 years.

After pulling all these down at the same time, and having them all standing against one wall, I have to say I never realized how much shorter the 1977 SC frames are compared to all the others. The longest is by far the Trek 412 at almost 5 full inches longer. The 27" wheel bikes are naturally a bit longer but the Raleigh SC is so much shorter you can see the difference 30' away. The 1978 is longer by a few inches, closer in length to the Asian frames which all have longer top tubes than most.

All three of my scales are accurate, I have 1, 3, 5, and 8 lb 'test weights' that are used to check the calibration.
I was really surprised at the two 1977 SC frames weighing in at different weights. They look absolutely identical otherwise. All of the SC frames are Carlton built and have 24tpi threaded BB's.
I do not have a Super Grand Prix here that's apart, and the one I've got is newer than 1978. I was also surprised to find that the smaller Nishiki Sport frame weighed more than the larger Custom frame, both supposedly plain steel tubing and both the same year, going by the component dates that were on the smaller Nishiki Sport.
I often wondered how true they were to which tubing they used on larger models, there has to be a limit to what size frame you can build with a particular tubing set and how long of a tube you can cut from a double or triple butted length of tubing.
All were bare frames with no hardware, forks, or bearing cups.

dddd

Wow, thanks for the data dump!


I will concur as to the bb threading, as all of the SC's and GS's I've had, from '72 on, had English bb threading.


I weighed an old, NOS, 58cm, sort of generic Diamant track frame/fork the other day and got 7.35lbs without any cups, and the seatpost diameter seems to be 26.2. The frame decal said only "tubi speciali accaiao made in italy" and was like a knock-off of an old Columbus decal, but accaiao only means steel. It's an authentic track frame without any brake drilling and with 76-degree angles.

rustymetal

The differences in the two 77 SC frames doesn't surprise me. I worked for a bike shop that sold Raleigh and Motobecane back around that time and I can remember the owner pitching a fit every time he opened up a bike box and found something different. The brochure on the counter would list one thing, the bikes would come through with something else. This was especially the case with the lower to mid range models. Not so much with the top end or racing models.
Myself, I still own the 1977 Super Course I bought brand new that year, it was actually a damaged new bike that I bought for cheap and fixed. It came out of the box with two bent wheels and bent bars. The bars were easy, I just popped on some SR branded bars and tossed the bent GB bars and stem. The rims were bad but the hubs were fine so I laced up a pair of Rigida 1320 rims, choosing to upgrade the hubs at that time to a pair of first generation Dura Ace hubs. I rode that bike for 10 years before moving away after getting out of school. Along the way, I had upgraded the derailleurs to a used pair of early Dura Ace (Crane rear), a buddy had given me after the original Huret Jubilee started giving me a lot of trouble. The bike sat at home for another 5 years till my brother let someone borrow it and it was stolen. I bought another same year bike while living in FL, a shop there had stumbled on several new old stock Raleigh road bikes and I bought myself one identical to the one I had before. That was 24 years ago. The second bike had all its original parts, but this one came with Suntour Cyclone derailleurs, Raleigh Scripted bars and stem, and a padded leather saddle. The box was still sealed when I brought the bike home. 10 years ago, now living back in NJ again, a buddy stumbled on a half dozen bikes at a local auction, which he paid all of $7 for. Low and behold the one was my old SC. I still had the serial number on file, and it matched. It had been spray painted with some cheap black paint, the rear wheel had been changed out for some modern aero wheel, and the Huret Jubilee derailleurs were gone. I've since built it a new set of wheels, hunted down a pair of proper Suntour Cyclone derailleurs and am contemplating a repaint. Its been sitting on my work bench in the garage now all winter waiting for better weather to paint.
I decided to take apart my other SC last month. Keep in mind both are 25.5" frames, both made in 1977 with Carlton decals on the seat tube. Both are red, although the red has turned to a very pale orange over the years with areas of the top tube looking more silver than anything else. The other frame was repainted with dull black paint, with lots of runs and sand stuck to spots that weren't dry yet when they rode it.
After reading this article, I put both bikes side by side and low and behold, the two frames are very different. The one is nearly 4 inches shorter than the other. The dropouts all look the same, as are the lugs but the rear triangle is shorter on the original bike. My first thought was that maybe I somehow overlooked it over the years and maybe my original bike had been a 1976 model with 27" wheels but a quick fit test of a 700C and a 27" wheel soon ruled that out as the 27" wheel had only a few mm of tire clearance and the long reach rear caliper would never shorten up enough to work with the 27" wheel. The difference is in the length of the chain stays and the angle of the seat stays. The main triangle is the same. With rear wheels installed, the difference is obvious in how close the tire is to the seat tube. On the shorter frame, the tire hits the seat tube when removing the back wheel, the other frame has more than 2 inches of room there. Both use 26.4 seat tubes, both seat posts are Raleigh Scripted SR Laprade.
My first SC came with a Brooks B17 leather saddle, the second bike had an imitation Selle Royale swede leather saddle. when it was new, which was still on it when I got it back years later.

I dug out an old digital scale I had that goes up to 25 lbs, it was meant for use in a hardware store for seed sales.
The frame with the shorter rear triangle weighed in at 5.01 lbs,
the frame with the longer rear triangle, the one that's covered in black paint, weighed in at 5.76 lbs.
I really never put the two bikes side by side, but I have always liked how my original bike rode and handled. The bike I bought new old stock was always a harsher ride but I sort of contributed that to the wheels being different.
I've got a buddy who's a bit of a Raleigh hoarder, I'll see if he's got a Super Grand Prix to compare too. He's probably got 100 frames stashed away in all sizes.

With how many bikes they were pumping out in those days, I don't think it would be hard to imagine them substituting another frame to be able to push out more of one model or another.
As far as threading, both of mine here have 24tpi threads and 68mm bottom brackets.
I've run across lesser models which were often pot luck, even on the Grand Prix and Sprite models.

I bought a matching pair of what I think are 1976 Raleigh Sprite 10 speed bikes for the vacation house, both bikes came from an older couple who hadn't used them in years. What sealed the deal was that they both had shop decals from the shop I worked at back then. The guy said he bought these two and two kids bikes all around Christmas of '76. The Sprites were Carmine red and Coffee Brown. Both of these bikes were in pristine shape, probably never really ridden. The first thing I did was a tear down and relube. One had a 72mm BB with 26tpi, threads, the other had 24tpi threads and measured 70mm wide. It didn't pose a concern since all I was doing was a clean and repack on the bearings but it shows how these bikes could vary in those years. The serial numbers are nearly identical, being only 137 digits apart. (Curiously, the bike with the lower serial number had the 24tpi). Both bikes to this day still have their original Raleigh Record tires and Pletscher rear carrier racks.
Other than the different threading on the BB shells, the two bikes were equipped the same.