Kat12

So, as noted here, I just bought a Maruishi Eagle Ace on Craigslist for $25. I know nothing about this brand or model. This is going to be a dedicated trainer-only bike. (Disclaimer: I don't consider myself a "cyclist." I ride my bike, in the summer, for errands of a few miles as an alternative to my car, when I have time to ride rather than drive and don't need to carry much. I don't ride for fitness or anything. I got the trainer for $20 at a yard sale, because a friend has a spin bike and keeps wanting me to come over sometimes and do her Zoom spin class with her and it'll be a fun workout alternative. I don't have time to do this even once a week, so I'm not going to get hardcore into this and it's not worth sinking a bunch of money into. I bought a cheap trainer bike because I didn't want to keep swapping out the rear wheel of my regular rider-- a hybrid-- nor wear the tires unevenly. I will be riding the Maruishi the mile or so to and from her house for class when I do go.)

I happened to get lucky on this bike as it was cheap and not very far from home (from looking on Craigslist so far, it seems I can have one or not both-- there was another I considered for slightly more, a Schwinn Varsity, but it was about 30 miles away-- so you can see why I jumped on this). IOW, I don't want to put much money into this venture, which is part of the reason I'm doing work myself (also, no way I'd get it into a shop any time soon). I'm not that mechanically-inclined, but that's partly simply because I've never learned. Now, I guess, is the time! But that also means I'm going to have a lot of questions, and Google hasn't been able to help with all of them.

These first questions, I cross-posted to the "newbie questions" thread over in Road Cycling as well.

So, the former owner (seller's daughter), I'm told, was about 5 feet tall. I'm 5'6" (unproportional, with short legs/long upper body, which I realize could be a problem). Frame size is 53cm; the seller said he checked the manual and that size should fit someone even taller than me (I'm not clear whether he had the manual for this bike and we both just forgot about it when I went there, or not). But my googling suggests I may be pushing it at the top end of the appropriate height for this frame size (confession: I don't understand that much about frame size). I raised the seat to fit fine. I raised the handlebars up to the max line and the top of the bars is still below the seat height (pics in other thread are before I raised the bars). I'd rather not be this bent over; I'm not going for max aerodynamics here, obviously, and would probably prefer to start out a bit higher than optimal until I get used to this bent-over riding position.

But, I don't know... is having the bars as high as they'll go a sign that the bike is too small for me? I'll need to take pictures of me on it. Since my body is not proportional to itself, should I be going for it to better fit my legs or reach? Obviously, I can't tell by feel since I've never ridden a road bike before. I don't really want to put a bunch of money into this bike (new bar stem) since the spin class is just for occasional fun, so I'll need to decide if I want to either deal with it, keep an eye out for super-cheap parts, or consider selling the bike for what I paid and trying to find something else cheap that already fits since that might cost less than trying to get new bars/stem for this one (or, just forget about the whole venture).


I'm also trying to swap out the saddle; I hate the current one. I have some spares with cutouts so I'd like to put one of those on. I can't get the old one off! I looked it up on Youtube... one video suggested I should just be able to slide the rails off the clamp (no, even if I pull really hard). Another suggested I should be able to pull out the center bolt (no; as you can see it's not smooth in the middle and it almost seems to wide to fit through the holes). Any other options?? Is it me, or the clamp? Here are pics (sorry, it's filthy; bike spent the last 25 years in a basement):





Thanks in advance!

branko_76 

Kat12 , the clamp inside the seat should slide out towards the rear of the seat. It may be a tight fit and there may be some corrosion binding the clamp to the rails so if you take a block of wood and a hammer, you should be able to tap it loose.

Regarding the handlebar height, did you loosen the stem bolt and then tap on the bolt with a hammer and block of wood to knock the internal wedge loose?

SurferRosa

To pull that seatpost clamp off the saddle rails, use some wd-40. Push it to the rear of the saddle.

Salamandrine 

A typical fit when this bike was new would have ranged from top of the bars level with the top of the seat, down to an inch or a bit more below the seat. Looks like you're about 2 inches below? That's actually fine, but could be difficult for a beginner. I can't really tell from the photo. The only way to raise it higher is to get a higher rise stem. Nitto Technomic is the classic but they're like $40+. I'm sure there's a cheap ugly one out there for less than half that. They need to be sized to fit the bars. Bar diameter could be 25.4 mm or 26.0 mm, or on rare occasions other sizes. Stem has to match. Got a digital caliper for measuring?

Taping the bars will allow you to use the top half of the bars. Nobody rides around in the drops all the time. Vintage 'comfort' position was on the tops, and also on the top corners of the bends. Modern bikes people stay on the hoods most of the time, but that won't work here. Modern brake levers are shaped differently and are set about 1.5" higher than vintage.

Don't be tempted to raise the stem above the limit line.

Normally I'd say just put some flat or 3 speed style bars on it, but it might not fit the whole spin class look. 3 out of 4 mixtes and ladies frame bikes got their handlebars swapped before they ever left the shop floor.

The seat clamp things will normally come apart if you knock out that center bolt. Or you can just hit it with a hammer towards the back of the seat. It will come out...

Hobbiano 

As the above post says, loosen the stem bolt about four or 5 turns, then give the bolt a sharp downward tap with a hammer, and it should be loose. Try holding the front wheel with your legs while turning the handlebars if its still stuck. When it comes loose, try pulling the stem completely out or the fork, and smear some grease on it and inside the fork as well, to keep it from getting stuck in the future. But the main reason to pull it out, is to make sure you insert it at least 2 inches, any less is dangerous. If that doesn't raise the bars enough, you can buy a taller stem.
All good advice above.

Kat12

Yup, that's precisely what I did. Worked great.

Yup, the handlebars are adjusted now, just needed to knock that wedge down and it was easy. Looks like both the seat and handlebar stems were well-greased, so no issues with those, luckily, though the stem bolt took a few solid whacks.


Yes, ignore the pictures in the other thread. That was before I moved the bars.

Yeah, they need new tape-- I thought in the CL pictures they had that foam stuff on the tops, too, but maybe the seller removed it because it did look like it was a bit beat up. But, I'm not going to put money into that until I know for sure I'm keeping the bike/these bars.

I'm not concerned about any sort of "look." Nobody in that class is hardcore, I'm not looking to impress anybody, and besides, aside from the instructor, I'm the only person in that class who's not blind...


Okay, I'll try the hammer. I wasn't sure if it was a good idea to give it a whack or not. The center bolt honestly doesn't seem like it'll come out. The rails do slide freely in the clamp, it's just getting it off the back that's the problem.

ETA: worked great with the hammer! Crossing my fingers I like the saddle I just put on (it's a spare I had, have never used it before). Another thing I'm not used to is having so much weight that far forward, TMI but it's a bit painful (that's why I've found I enjoy cutout saddles).

Hobbiano 

Don't forget to leave at least 2" of stem inserted. There should be a minimum insertion mark on the stem. No only is it a safety issue, but if you tighten it up with less insertion, the wedge puts pressure on the weak part of the fork, where the threads and keyway for the headset are cut.

Kat12

Okay, fit question. So far I have ridden the thing to my friend's house once (but haven't had a chance to try spin class yet) and it killed my wrists even in that short distance. (My "regular" bike is perfectly comfortable.) I've finally had time to try to take some photos.

Now to me, it seems the handlebar height on this bike is not too bad, in terms of being short, so I find that encouraging. So there has to be something else in my posture, besides just "I'm not yet used to a road-bike riding position vs. hybrid." Does anything stick out to you all? I don't feel like I'm leaning over a ton, I don't feel like I'm putting a ton of weight on my arms, I feel like I can get my weight back on my sit bones (although I may not have done in the photos). I don't think I had a death grip on the handlebars (still feels a bit weird to have narrower bars, and also I ride carefully because I'm aware the tires are old, but I tried to relax and it didn't seem to help.) Seemed a bit more comfortable in the drops, but I didn't spend much time there because I have a hard time reaching the brake levers from there. Photo of hands on top, and hands in the drops; I intentionally wore close-fitting clothes for the pictures so you can hopefully see my lines well.

(Disclaimers: yes, the saddle is a skosh high. I just put it up real quick, because most recently I had transported the bike in my car and to do that the saddle has to go all the way down or it won't fit. I just put it back up quickly for the photos but I feel it needs to go down about a centimeter / half an inch or so. And I'm not perfectly happy with my position, but I don't have a helper so I had to use the self-timer on the phone, which meant I had ten seconds to push the button, run to the bike, climb on, and position myself, and I feel I'm not quite perfectly in the position I would actually use while riding-- for one, I'd be further back on the saddle. And, I apologize for the camera angle. I took these in a nearby parking lot and had originally planned to put the phone on a picnic table and balance against a tree, but the picnic table was in a huge puddle so that was out, so I had no choice but to set up the phone on the ground. And, I know that the bars don't yet have tape, which will mean I get more vibrations that could cause pain, but I was wearing padded gloves when riding, which I would think would have been near to riding barehanded with taped bars?)

Thanks!





ETA: a picture of the bars themselves. Do they need to be rotated up a bit? This shouldn't make a difference to the way riding with my hands on the top feels though, right?

Salamandrine 

The bar position is fine. It's a typical neutral vintage angle. No, it won't make a difference on the tops.

The brake levers could be slid up the bars a half inch or so. This typically requires taking the cables out though. You don't need brakes to ride on a trainer, if that's still the plan. Don't worry about it for now.

Saddle position is too high. Half an inch is probably a reasonable guess. A good trick for getting it ballpark is lower it until you can just touch the pedal with your heel without rocking your hips. (with no shoes). This is just a trick for fitting. You pedal with the ball of your forefoot on the pedal of course. There should be a slight bend in your leg at the bottom of the stroke. Your leg is almost completely straight. It's actually better to err slightly on the side of too low.

You're sitting too forward on the seat, which is partly trying to compensate for it being too high. You may want to adjust it more forward if that is more comfortable.

It's a little unpopular to say it, but sometimes correct position is not going to be completely comfortable at first. You have to get used to it.

jdawginsc 

Another rough rule of thumb is when in the drop part of the bars, and comfortably back in the saddle, your nose should be over the stem not the bars. It's a more comfortable stretched out position.

I think that stem might be a little short for your reach (you have a bit longer torso for the size of the bike as measured from seat tube to the head (steerer) tube). That stem might be 60cm at best. 30 to 40 cm more could make a difference in comfort. Luckily those come pretty cheaply, or someone might have an extra here floating around if they knew the handlebar diameter (assuming it is a standard vintage bike 22.2cm quill part)

Kat12

As I said, I'm aware the saddle is high; I just put it up for the pictures and didn't have a lot of time to mess with it the way I would for riding (I need to find a way to mark the correct position, since any time I transport it in my car it's going to need to be readjusted, but I'm not sure what I can use that won't rub off), and that I'm too far forward, which is largely a feature of jumping on the bike quickly and trying to get my feet on the pedals and my hands on the handlebars, without falling over, before the shutter clicked; I didn't have time to fully get into the position I would ride in, unfortunately. My normal position is not like this, and it is not the position I was in when my wrists were hurting. Imagine me back further, as I stated, and with the seat lower, as I stated. Wrists are the only part of riding this bike that is uncomfortable; everything else feels fine, from my feet up to my shoulders. I don't expect to be perfectly comfortable, but I don't expect it to be downright painful on my wrists, and still aching for a while afterward, even for such a short ride.

Mostly I'm wondering if I'm leaning too far forward (or not far enough) or reaching too far or not far enough, like maybe the geometry of the bike isn't right for the geometry of me, although you'd think something like that would cause more issues. I checked my wrist angle while riding and I don't think I'm doing anything odd. I don't imagine the narrower grip can be an issue as I don't see why it would.

The position of the hoods is on my mind for now-- especially since if you look closely, the left one has rotated in; it probably got knocked when I loaded it in the car last-- so they're definitely going to need adjustment at least on that. Whether I move them up, not sure; it's true I won't need them for the trainer but I will for the ride there and back, but I can reach the top levers easily from the top so it's not a huge deal (come winter, the bike probably will just live in my friend's basement so it won't matter at all then). Won't moving the hoods up put the brakes even more out of my reach while in the drops, though?

Another thing I'm wondering about is tightening the bolt on the seat post (I'm used to quick-releases, which are easy to tighten properly). I feel like it's tight, but the saddle can rotate if I knock it and even wants to possibly slide down. I'll tighten it more once I get the height just right, but I'm afraid of tightening it to the point that I can't get it loosened again if I need to (I guess what's what WD-40 is for?). Is hand-tightening (with a wrench/socket/pliers) as tightly as I can okay? I mean, it's not like I'm going to break it, just don't want to get it stuck...

Salamandrine 

You aren't leaning too far forward. It's a reasonable intermediate position, about perfect for a beginner. On the tops, you are on the upright side. It can take some getting used to. In the long run it will be more comfortable.

As far as wrist discomfort, I think the lack of handlebar tape is at least half the problem. Bars are slippery without tape, and you're likely having to grip too tightly. Also, try holding onto the bars at the 'corners', 2-3 inches above the brake levers. This was the other vintage comfort position. I'd be there most of my long easy miles BITD. Again, it won't work without tape. You may find it more comfortable than the tops, though moving around is good, and not keeping your hands in the same place all the time is good.

The hoods themselves are never going to be a comfort position on a vintage bike. Moving them up a bit will help though. The standard position is so that a straight edge held to the bottom of the drops just barely grazes the tips of the brake levers. Yeah, I can see one is turned in. The brakes will be perfectly usable if the levers are set like that. Angling up the bars to try to emulate a modern setup is where you can get into trouble. It will quickly make the brake levers very difficult to use from the drops. Since you have 'safety levers', you could probably afford to sacrifice some usability in the drops, and rotate them up slightly -- not too much.



Gimondi and Merckx showing the two vintage comfort positions.

Salamandrine 

As far as the seatpost not staying tight. Don't use pliers, ever. Use a properly sized wrench, or at least a quality adjustable wrench. Take out the bolt and put some grease on the threads. Oil will work if you don't have grease. That will make it tighten easier. Yeah, it has to be pretty tight. If the seatpost is still slipping, the post itself may be undersized. Pretty tough to ascertain that over the interwebs.

SJX426 

Kat12 You will find that you adjust as your ride more. As you get use to riding and get more comfortable, you will start noticing the little details that need adjusting. I still am playing with saddle fore/aft position. I find that I am often "on the rivet" some times and just slide back to the right place. I think my stem is too long too.
WRT handlebar rotation, I like mine and little flatter on top. this affords more hand positions on the top of the drops. if the curve is too far down, I don't use it as I feel like I am going to fall over the front. There is a fair amount of controversy on this subject from the flats being parallel to the ground to having them pointed at the rear axle. I like mine about half way. This is not a problem for me because I use the levers from the top of the brake more than from the drops. When I do use them in the drops, I am leaning way over. Bottom line is that it is a personal preference. Jost one thing is nearly universal. If you put a straight edge on the bottom of the flats, the bottom of the lever should be touching the straight edge. Not further up or down. Then there is the issue of the levers even being comfortable for you hands. One step at a time!

WRT tightening the post. It can be a bit tighter to keep the saddle from rotating. It will work its way down the seat tube as you ride over bumps if it can rotate. Most of us lubricate the post and still get it tight enough.

clubman 

That's a good bike at the price. It's a nice Japanese marque and that one looks minty fresh. When you tweak the fit and you like it, a few more upgrades might be worth the time and money. (wheels?) Or not.
Maybe show some more detailed pics when you're done? Good luck.

Kat12

I did try the "corner grip" as well... but that felt like it canted my wrists sideways and possibly exacerbated the problem (I kept moving my hand position, not much seemed to help). I don't feel the need to rotate the bars at all, I don't think, but of course I know nothing about it and Googling found me pictures that seemed to suggest they might be too far down. If no one else thinks they're a problem, I'll leave them (I certainly don't want to sacrifice any usability of the brakes from the drops as I can barely get to them as it is...).


I doubt this is the case (incorrectly-sized post). The seller told me no parts had ever been replaced, so it's probably the original seatpost (though I admit I'm not sure if the saddle was the original one; I have no idea what the bike may have come with vs. what was on it when I bought it).


Yes, it sounds like the former owner didn't ride it that much and storage since then was in a basement, not a shed or garage, so it's in pretty good shape though it does have some dings (that suggest she may not have been that careful with it at times, not that it may have crashed at some point). I don't plan on doing too much fixing as it's just going to be a trainer bike and it was meant to be something I didn't throw a lot of money into, so the way you see it now is pretty much the way it's going to stay, save for replacing the saddle (you can't tell in the pictures where my arse is parked on it, obviously, but it's a different one from what you see in the first pictures) and new bar tape. New tires as warranted, but not quite yet (since the point is to wear them out on the trainer!).

icemilkcoffee 

1. Rotate bar until the top part is horizontal.
2. Seat likely too far forward. Look up “knee over spindle”
3. Your legs should be supporting ~half your weight. When you are pedaling hard, your legs will naturally do that because they are pushing down on the pedals. But when you are coasting- make it a habit to straighten one leg and stand on a pedal .

Bob the Mech

Bike fitting...How to. 'A picture (or moving pictures) paints a thousand words' (to paraphrase advertising executive, Fred R. Barnard).



GCN a great source of info, some more useful than others.

https://www.globalcyclingnetwork.com/

Salamandrine 

Modern road bars have changed, and are meant to be set up with the tops flat. Modern brake levers are designed to work with this set up. Some people are not going to be familiar with proper vintage handlebar/brake set up, and it will give them cognitive dissonance to look at. Nevertheless the way they are set up now is normal and typical.

conspiratemus1

I’ve read over your posts and the replies. I don’t see much about your wrist pain, which seems clearly to be your main and even only serious concern.
From your photos — and here I realize you had to hop on the bike and get settled inside 10 sec — it seems to me that in both hand positions your wrists are fully hyperextended. That’s the position they’d be in if you were going to strike something with the heel of your hand in a forward thrust. For gripping something like a handlebar (or a hockey stick or a baseball bat), you want your wrist closer to the neutral “position of function”, where a line extended over the top of your forearm carries smoothly (or less than 10 degrees of angle) across the wrist and over the back of the hand to the knuckles. This gives the long tendons of the muscles that provide gripping force — they are located in the forearm — a more direct and efficient path to the fingers. The neutral position also puts the median nerve under less tension as it courses through the carpal tunnel on its way to the hand.

So if your real riding position of your wrists matches what I see in your photos, your wrists might feel better if you adopted less extension as you hold the bars anywhere, tops, curves, or drops. Since the effective length of the forearm + hand is longest in the neutral position, you will get a centimetre or so of additional reach, too. Finally, since to squeeze the brakes levers with adequate force, your wrist has to snap into neutral position anyway, having it in neutral all the time is one less muscle movement to execute in an emergency.

Sometimes the wrist collapses into hyper extension because the flexor muscles in the forearm are not strong enough to bear the greater upper-body weight applied to them on a drop-bar bike (as compared to flat bars.). If you are serious about this — I know it’s not your regular bike — and find your forearm muscles fatigue easily, you could incorporate some wrist curls with dumbbells into your routine. But a lot of it is just getting your muscles used to doing new things.

Good luck, 👍

P.S. I realize the photos of Gimondi and Merckx upthread show both of them with more wrist extension than I’m advising for you (and me). Maybe they were racing against the self-timers in their cameras, too... But to me, it shows they haven’t got a death grip on the bars, which is important in itself. Sprinting for the finish or in a tough out-of-the-saddle climb, they’d be in position of function for grip.

Kat12

I *think* I figured it out on my way to my friend's house the other day... I think I maybe *was* putting too much weight on my arms, just expecting that I was supposed to (and possibly just nerves about a bike with 1. narrower handlebars than I was used to, 2. feeling more "flimsy" than I'm used to {I have to keep telling myself the tires are narrower but really can handle rough asphalt, small potholes, bumps in sidewalks, etc.}, and 3. old tires that I try to be careful of). I backed off a bit and I think it definitely made a difference. I don't have especially-weak forearms, no (between ringing bass handbells and climbing-- though obviously I've done neither lately-- my forearm situation could be worse).

Part of the wrist position is, I think, reaching the brakes.

I moved the saddle back but I think I went too far, so I'll need to mess with that more.

And also figure out how to raise the trainer up because I think the tire was impacting the floor underneath a tiny bit (thank heaven I had a mat there). I'm thinking I can just replace the strap holding the two halves at the bottom with a shorter one to make it sit a bit higher (the current strap is worn anyway; apparently the last owner had the same issue).

It went fine on the trainer, though. I have a chain click I need to solve next as well; it looks like the arm that comes down on the outside of the front derailleur impacts the chain if I use any of the cogs toward the outside (and there might be an issue with using the rear cogs most to the inside as well).

kermie

Sounds like your adjusting it as you go, which is the way to go. We are all built differently, so make sure your comfortable and don't worry about what others look like as they ride, Nice bicycle for the price by the way.

conspiratemus1

While I was doing a long ride a couple of days ago, it occurred to me that what supports your upper body when you are riding a drop-bar bike are the erector muscles of your back, not really your arms and shoulders. Watch an ice skater or in-line skater as they bend over for aerodynamic speed. The skater will have her hands clasped behind her back or swinging in rhythm with the stride. A hockey player will be supporting her upper- body padding and her stick as well, while fully bent forward. The upper limbs aren’t being recruited to support the upper body at all — it’s all coming from the core. Hence yoga and Pilates.

So you should be able to ride a bike with almost no weight on your wrists/hands. Of course as we get tired, — our rides are longer even than long-track speed-skating — our back muscles fatigue and more weight comes onto our hands, and more road shock is transmitted up into the shoulders. Where the comfort positions being modeled by Gimondi and Merkx are really useful is when you make a conscious decision to take all weight off your hands and make your back support you. Then let the wrists drop into hyperextension, without weighting them. It feels so good between your shoulder blades it’s almost like a massage. This is way different from taking so much weight on your hands that the wrists collapse.

The final arm advice is to keep your elbows slightly flexed all the time, not locked in full extension, to get some shock absorption so you’re not straight-arming the road shock right up into your shoulder girdle. (Elbows should be tucked in and not sticking out into the wind.) This is easier to maintain if your back is doing more of the work to begin with, as Merckx would be doing in the photo.

Granted much of this advice is aimed at making riding for 3 or 4 hours (or much longer) pleasurable or at least tolerable. But attention to technique and form (which admittedly you have to practise by riding till it huts, until it doesn’t), will make short rides effortless and a source of joy.

Kat12

Yes, I realized this as well-- that is how I figured out what I was doing. Suddenly I was like, "why am I leaning so far forward?" Stopped doing it... wrists instantly felt better. "Oh, that was it!" I tend to lean forward more the more intense it gets, I think-- in the first instance, concentrating on seeing hazards in the road that might bust my tires. When I backed off, instant relief.

Salamandrine 

I was going to mention the same thing. You beat me to it. Very true. An experienced rider will put very little weight on their hands. You are held up by your core, more specifically your lower back and neck muscles. It's quite possible to hold you torso in full racing position, with hands off the bar completely. It can take a while to develop these muscles, but once you do, it's possible to ride all day in comfort, and it gives the option of shifting your weight around. That's what I was trying to get at by suggesting that initial comfort is less important than simply getting used to 'proper' form. In the long run, it's going to be more comfortable.

It can often be useful to work on these muscles off the bike using appropriate calisthenics, gym exercises, pilates, etc. That's going to be quicker than riding thousands of miles on a bike, which also works. Remember to work opposing muscle groups, and don't do too much at once.

BTW, the seat isn't too far back. You are sitting too far forward on it in the picture, because the seat was too high, as you know. I'd suggest it be set up in the middle for now. The knee over pedal spindle thing can be done later.