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I don't like doing the bottom bracket

Old 03-21-20, 07:48 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by BCDrums

Feeling omnipotent after humiliating the lock ring, I went after the fixed cup. I assaulted it with the Sugino wrench, a block of wood, some coarse language, and finally the claw hammer. I fought the law, and the law won. I was forced to leave it in place, and clean and grease it from the exterior. Humbling.
You are doing it wrong. Don’t feel bad, I’ve been doing it wrong for 40 years until I had an epiphany about 3 weeks ago. First you need some parts and tools.

Untitled by Stuart Black, on Flickr

I use a old bottom bracket cup, a bolt (or nut, depending on the spindle) and a large fender washer. Don’t take out the adjustable cup first. Assemble the parts like this

Untitled by Stuart Black, on Flickr
Untitled by Stuart Black, on Flickr
Untitled by Stuart Black, on Flickr
Untitled by Stuart Black, on Flickr
Untitled by Stuart Black, on Flickr

Now turn the wrench on the fixed cup clockwise. You can get more leverage on the fixed cup wrench...the worst wrench of all bicycle tools...than you can when using it the way we have always been using. At my local co-op, we use Sampson for extra leverage.

Untitled by Stuart Black, on Flickr

You could also use the same tool for the lock ring on the adjustable cup. You could just loosen up either the fixed cup or the lockring without removing them and then use the tool on the other side.
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Old 03-21-20, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk
It is still the hardest part of the dance steps! Smiles, MH
Lots lots of finished square footage there. I hate to see your property tax bill.
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Old 03-22-20, 01:18 AM
  #28  
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As a pro mechanic, I have no problem servicing a cup and cone BB, and I'm not exactly a super old hand (in it for like 4 years). Replacing with cartridge BB makes sense a lot of the time from a price/performance perspective, and frankly a lot of BBs have really chewed bearing surfaces and aren't worth fixing. Occasionally I'll overhaul one when it's in OK shape simply because we don't have a replacement in stock and I want to get the customer rolling as soon as possible, or really anytime there's a nice, higher end, vintage bike where the parts aren't too worn.

Overhauling a cup and cone BB isn't that crazy, in most cases it'd be less than 30 minutes of labor unless something is crazy seized. I do prefer bearing retainers in most cases, except perhaps for high end/vintage stuff.
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Old 03-22-20, 08:22 AM
  #29  
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Thanks for the method, Stuart, looks do-able. If you took all those photos just for this reply, triple thanks.
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Old 03-22-20, 08:29 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by BCDrums
Thanks for the method, Stuart, looks do-able. If you took all those photos just for this reply, triple thanks.
I would add to Stuart's photos it helps to have the front wheel on the ground when actually reefing on it, rather than putting all the force through the stand.
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Old 03-22-20, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by BCDrums
Thanks for the method, Stuart, looks do-able. If you took all those photos just for this reply, triple thanks.
I actually did it a few weeks ago for my local co-op. We’ve been doing it with a different tool

2015-03-14 11.21.32 by Stuart Black, on Flickr
2015-03-14 11.28.26 by Stuart Black, on Flickr

The idea came from the Bike Forums and we have since modified it further by using a threaded cup to hold the nondrive side nut in place. But the problem with this method is that as you unscrew the cup, it tightens up. I saw a Stein Tool that works based on the spindle and the light bulbs flashed on. That’s when I realized that we had all be doing it wrong for so many years. The new setup doesn’t tighten up and you can completely remove the cup if you want.

We see a lot of these at my co-op so we do a lot of removals of them. I’d much prefer working on cartridge bearing hubs given the choice since there isn’t much “work” that needs to be done. But there’s millions of old bikes out there that still need work.
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Old 03-22-20, 09:17 AM
  #32  
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I'll also add a warning about cheaters. Wrenches aren't always made for that extra torque and they do break. If you must use one, assume something will break, and plan for what your hand will punch, and where the broken pieces will fly. Actually that's good advice anytime you put torque on a wrench.

An aside: I grew up helping my father at his plumbing shop. He had a collection of large iron pipe wrenches with bent and broken handles and taught his sons not to use cheaters. Heat and impact are your friends. But of course I didn't learn that lesson until I put a 5' cheater on a 24" wrench on an overhead pipe, pulled down on it, right onto my head when the wrench broke. That left a mark, and lasting respect for Dad's advice.
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Old 03-22-20, 09:19 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by cpach
As a pro mechanic, I have no problem servicing a cup and cone BB, and I'm not exactly a super old hand (in it for like 4 years). Replacing with cartridge BB makes sense a lot of the time from a price/performance perspective, and frankly a lot of BBs have really chewed bearing surfaces and aren't worth fixing. Occasionally I'll overhaul one when it's in OK shape simply because we don't have a replacement in stock and I want to get the customer rolling as soon as possible, or really anytime there's a nice, higher end, vintage bike where the parts aren't too worn.

Overhauling a cup and cone BB isn't that crazy, in most cases it'd be less than 30 minutes of labor unless something is crazy seized. I do prefer bearing retainers in most cases, except perhaps for high end/vintage stuff.
My bike was on the high end when it was new in 1990, but now it's vintage/old. I was only vaguely aware of cartridge bearing BBs before this discussion, but now I want to remove the Cup 'n' Cone BB and put in a cartridge. But it ain't broke, so I am resisting the urge.

Searching the web for info on cartridge BBs, I came across an article on the Chain Reaction Cycles site that refers to cartridge-type BBs as "a declining standard," being supplanted by "external or outboard BB and the press-fit BB (with this latter type becoming more and more commonplace)."

So maybe the next time I do my BB even cartridge BBs will be old-fashioned. But it's more likely that I will wear out before the BB does.
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Old 03-22-20, 09:19 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by dedhed
I would add to Stuart's photos it helps to have the front wheel on the ground when actually reefing on it, rather than putting all the force through the stand.
Never had much of a problem. Samson does a marvelous job of adding leverage and our stands are very rigid. But if you don’t have a long a lever as we have or if your stand is flimsy, putting the wheel on the ground couldn’t hurt.
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Old 03-22-20, 09:30 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by BCDrums
My bike was on the high end when it was new in 1990, but now it's vintage/old. I was only vaguely aware of cartridge bearing BBs before this discussion, but now I want to remove the Cup 'n' Cone BB and put in a cartridge. But it ain't broke, so I am resisting the urge.

Searching the web for info on cartridge BBs, I came across an article on the Chain Reaction Cycles site that refers to cartridge-type BBs as "a declining standard," being supplanted by "external or outboard BB and the press-fit BB (with this latter type becoming more and more commonplace)."

So maybe the next time I do my BB even cartridge BBs will be old-fashioned. But it's more likely that I will wear out before the BB does.
It’s a fairly easy change to make. All you need is the same length spindle as the cup and cone one you have now. I pitted a lot of cup and cone bottom bracket in the early days of mountain biking and have replaced a lot of them. Once cartridge bearing bottom brackets came along, the need to replace them dropped to zero. I’ve replaced a lot of cartridge bearing bottom brackets through upgrades but I’ve never had one fail.

As for it being a declining standard, yes, there aren’t too many square taper bottom brackets being made but they are still available and very cheap. Even the cheap ones are robust units.
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Old 03-22-20, 09:37 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun
Everyone except big box stores use sealed (cartridge or external) BB. Just nothing to maintain besides replacement of the $15 BB. imagine how much an LBS would charge for servicing cup/cone BB.
Agreed, but a cup cone system is a thing of beauty and mechanical simplicity. A well adjusted Campy bottom bracket is easy to set up if you know how to wrench, is smoothness personified, never creaks (how many creaking bottom bracket posts are on the forum? Probably more than chain lube posts) and only has to come apart when you paint the bike.
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Old 03-22-20, 09:37 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by andrewclaus
I'll also add a warning about cheaters. Wrenches aren't always made for that extra torque and they do break. If you must use one, assume something will break, and plan for what your hand will punch, and where the broken pieces will fly. Actually that's good advice anytime you put torque on a wrench.

An aside: I grew up helping my father at his plumbing shop. He had a collection of large iron pipe wrenches with bent and broken handles and taught his sons not to use cheaters. Heat and impact are your friends. But of course I didn't learn that lesson until I put a 5' cheater on a 24" wrench on an overhead pipe, pulled down on it, right onto my head when the wrench broke. That left a mark, and lasting respect for Dad's advice.
The wrench for a fixed cup isn’t likely to fracture. It’s cut from steel plate and not harden. It will bend but it probably won’t break. Heat and impart introduce their own problems. Applying enough heat to loosen a bottom bracket will probably result in damage to the paint...which usually undesirable. Hitting the thin tool with a hammer will bend the soft metal they are made of and, given the thinness of the fixed cup, the chances of missing the tool with a hammer and hitting something else are very high.
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Old 03-22-20, 10:55 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
It’s a fairly easy change to make. All you need is the same length spindle as the cup and cone one you have now. .
Taking into account if your existing spindle is asymmetrical, as most cartridges are symmetrical and many cup & cone are not. There are numerous charts available showing symmetrical equivalents.
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Old 03-22-20, 12:02 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
The wrench for a fixed cup isn’t likely to fracture. It’s cut from steel plate and not harden. It will bend but it probably won’t break. Heat and impart introduce their own problems. Applying enough heat to loosen a bottom bracket will probably result in damage to the paint...which usually undesirable. Hitting the thin tool with a hammer will bend the soft metal they are made of and, given the thinness of the fixed cup, the chances of missing the tool with a hammer and hitting something else are very high.
As you can see in post 4, my wrench is starting to deform. It's probably done 5-6 "tough ones". It'll still last my lifetime, since I'm not working on bikes very much. I consider it a semi consumable.
Part of the reason for the "holding device" is it's hard to hold the wrench in place with one hand & whack with the other. One can just focus on hitting the wrench "square".
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Old 03-22-20, 01:12 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
As you can see in post 4, my wrench is starting to deform. It's probably done 5-6 "tough ones". It'll still last my lifetime, since I'm not working on bikes very much. I consider it a semi consumable.
Part of the reason for the "holding device" is it's hard to hold the wrench in place with one hand & whack with the other. One can just focus on hitting the wrench "square".
I would agree with you for low use personal tools, although I resist using hammers on tools. If you look at the tool in post 26, you can see how it has been distorted through use. My co-op goes through tools at a higher rate than even professional shops...we see roughly 1500 to 2000 bikes in the volunteer shop per year. That tool gets used several times a week. Banging on it a lot will damage it even further. I came up with my tool solution so that our tools will last a little longer.

I’m also not too sure about having random people using hammers around the shop on a regular basis. Many of the people who come in to the shop have trouble with deciding which end of a screw driver is the business one. I don’t want them to be wangging stuff with hammers.
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Old 03-22-20, 03:33 PM
  #41  
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- It helps a lot to have a bike stand that allows you to rotate the bike.

- I'm not especially strong, but I can get things good and tight with body technique. I can loosen very tight things, too. I can't describe it, but I do teach it at the coop. One of the secrets is getting things in position so that my arms have the most leverage so my hands are at shoulder level. Sometimes it helps to wedge my elbow onto my hip when I push.

- I find a cup-and-cone BB is not the worst job for me, not nearly. Lately, my unfavoritest job is running housings and cables.

- If you are careful and your grease is sticky enough, you can probably put grease on the drive side race and place the balls in the grease. Then insert the spindle into the fixed cup very gingerly.
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Old 03-22-20, 05:56 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by San Rensho
Agreed, but a cup cone system is a thing of beauty and mechanical simplicity. A well adjusted Campy bottom bracket is easy to set up if you know how to wrench, is smoothness personified, never creaks (how many creaking bottom bracket posts are on the forum? Probably more than chain lube posts) and only has to come apart when you paint the bike.
Does Campy still sell cup n cone?? Are they sealed, or do they need service? I still like the Shimano cup snd cone hubs. But hate cheap hubs. There is a significant difference in how easy to set them up.

I assume Campy's are easier to set up. But most cup n cone is on cheap bbb bikes these days, with worst quality.

I still think the sealed type is best. They are cheap and last a very long time with no service need.

BTW, I do service cup and cone BB on kids or other project bikes. But there is no economics. If you paid a mechanic to service them, you may as well save the labor and buy a sealed BB. There is a reason they went the way of the Dodo on non-dispoable bikes.
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Old 03-22-20, 07:14 PM
  #43  
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So out of these forty some odd posts no one has mentioned a Var bottom bracket tool. Easily the best tool for the job, but not cheap. Just an observation, Smiles, MH
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Old 03-22-20, 07:21 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun
Does Campy still sell cup n cone?? Are they sealed, or do they need service? I still like the Shimano cup snd cone hubs. But hate cheap hubs. There is a significant difference in how easy to set them up.

I assume Campy's are easier to set up. But most cup n cone is on cheap bbb bikes these days, with worst quality.

I still think the sealed type is best. They are cheap and last a very long time with no service need.

BTW, I do service cup and cone BB on kids or other project bikes. But there is no economics. If you paid a mechanic to service them, you may as well save the labor and buy a sealed BB. There is a reason they went the way of the Dodo on non-dispoable bikes.
Im talking about old school campy super record bb, probably made before you were born, and yes, they are still the best. Agreed, the labor cost makes no sense, but I wrench on my bikes and cup and cone bb with loose balls, heh, heh, is still the best bottom bracket design.

.
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Old 03-22-20, 07:25 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk
So out of these forty some odd posts no one has mentioned a Var bottom bracket tool. Easily the best tool for the job, but not cheap. Just an observation, Smiles, MH
Likely because no one has seen one in the flesh. And the price means that many probably won’t see one. I think the price is probably too great for dealing with an obsolete technology.
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Old 03-22-20, 08:15 PM
  #46  
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CCmute,
Only if you aren't a mechanic. As for the obsolete technology, Please go to any wally world and buy a bike and then come back to this thread and tell me about the technology. I am going to still be using my Var tool for years because of the technology, that is still being used in the market. Just like spending money on quality tools like Mac and Snap On, they pay for themselves in quality over time. Are they easily found? No, because few if any guys calling themselves mechanics are willing to pay for quality tools. I have owned mine for over 40 years and it has yet to fail. Can you say that for the Park or any other tool like that? Just my opinion, Smiles, MH
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Old 03-22-20, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk
CCmute,
Only if you aren't a mechanic. As for the obsolete technology, Please go to any wally world and buy a bike and then come back to this thread and tell me about the technology. I am going to still be using my Var tool for years because of the technology, that is still being used in the market. Just like spending money on quality tools like Mac and Snap On, they pay for themselves in quality over time. Are they easily found? No, because few if any guys calling themselves mechanics are willing to pay for quality tools. I have owned mine for over 40 years and it has yet to fail. Can you say that for the Park or any other tool like that? Just my opinion, Smiles, MH
“Are they easily found?” kind of answers the question, doesn’t it? Most bike shops I’ve been in don’t have a lot of VAR tools. They get by with the Park Tool because while the VAR might last longer, it’s also about 8 times more expensive. It’s also not a tool that a lot of people need now in most any bike shop so it’s not much of an investment if it sits on a shelf and only gets used once or twice a year at best. Most people are going to leave the fixed cup in place and just service it as best they can similarly to way BCDrums has.

Yes, I know that they are used on HelMart bikes. I have to deal with them all the time. That doesn’t make them better. In fact, the ones on HelMart bikes are worse than the worst ones I had to deal with nearly 40 years ago. The metal used in the ones from HelMart bikes now are such poor quality metal that they are more likely to pull apart than unscrew.

Finally, as for the Park Tool fixed cup, it’s not a great tool. I hate it will a burning passion. But it does work and it is cheap. It works better with the modifications.
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Old 03-23-20, 08:15 AM
  #48  
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Mad Honk are you talking about the lockring tool? Yes, the VAR tool was heavenly. It made me feel strong!

Cartridge BBs make a ton of sense. I think they are cheaper. They are so easy to put in and take out, and no adjustment necessary. But they do not last longer as far as I can tell. They fail totally rather than degrading.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 03-23-20, 08:35 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
The wrench for a fixed cup isn’t likely to fracture. It’s cut from steel plate and not harden. It will bend but it probably won’t break. Heat and impart introduce their own problems. Applying enough heat to loosen a bottom bracket will probably result in damage to the paint...which usually undesirable. Hitting the thin tool with a hammer will bend the soft metal they are made of and, given the thinness of the fixed cup, the chances of missing the tool with a hammer and hitting something else are very high.
About a month or so ago my bb wrench broke, shrapnel flying, had to get a new wrench.
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Old 03-23-20, 08:50 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk
So out of these forty some odd posts no one has mentioned a Var bottom bracket tool. Easily the best tool for the job, but not cheap. Just an observation, Smiles, MH
Originally Posted by cyccommute
Likely because no one has seen one in the flesh. And the price means that many probably won’t see one. I think the price is probably too great for dealing with an obsolete technology.
The only VAR tools I have seen in my lifetime looked like Steampunk stuff, elegant, precise and grimy, held by grizzled, knuckle-scarred bike mechanics (like youze guys). Today I found out that VAR has an extensive modern website filled with bike tool porn. The fixed-cup removal tool costs about $172 US. I won't be buying one, but I can appreciate it.
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