How were old steel bikes made?
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
How were old steel bikes made?
Sorry the title is vague, but I didn't want to be too specific. I need some resources that discuss the manufacture of steel framed bicycles (probably lugged) of years gone by for a report, and was hoping the folk on here could help me? I know that 'steel framed' encompasses an enormous variety of bicycles, but I'm pretty flexible in the sense that, if there's a great resource for 19th century bikes and nothing for 80s bikes then I'll write about 19th century bikes. One thing that's very important is that the resource centres around manufacture and not design. I'd prefer to write about design but my lecturer doesn't want to hear it. Text resources are preferred, since there easier to cite, but old videos and such would also be handy.
Super specific stuff is handy as well, even frame building instructions would be useful. I've got to write 5 pages and not a word is to be on design, so I'll probably be getting to 'how they butt tubing'.
Cheers in advance for any input, even suggestions on specific types of bike/ manufacture would be appreciated. ATM I was thinking something like the Raleigh factory.
Super specific stuff is handy as well, even frame building instructions would be useful. I've got to write 5 pages and not a word is to be on design, so I'll probably be getting to 'how they butt tubing'.
Cheers in advance for any input, even suggestions on specific types of bike/ manufacture would be appreciated. ATM I was thinking something like the Raleigh factory.
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Ann Arbor Michigan
Posts: 152
Bikes: miyata 83 1000,84 1000,83 610,88 ridge runner ,Schwinn 84 high sierra,88 Cimmeron,86 Passage,84 Stumplumper ,83 Mt Whitney,83 Trek 850,Merckx Century,PX10, RB1,XO 1 XO 4,bunch of stuff like that
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times
in
42 Posts
build
Big subject but one chapter that you must include is when Schwinn developed the Electro forging method of turning sheet steel into bikes in the 60s and 70s bike boom era.I think they sold 8 million Electro forged bikes....a unique manufacturing method.....traditionally cast or drawn lugs were brass brazed or silver brazed to seamed or seamless tubes..which was considered the strongest way.......cheaper bikes were just welded together without lugs.........there is no such thing as lightweight steel.....but they combined alloys like chromium molybendum magnesium to the steel to make the steel much much stronger so they could draw the tubes thinner and make a lighter bike....a butted tube has the wall thickness of the tube thicker on the ends to weld/braze better and thinner along the middle which made the bike lighter still.......heat treating made the steel even stronger so they could make the tube even thinner and lighter still.....there is a ton videos on you tube.....the RALEIGH how a bike is made from 1950s....and tons hand builders.. Columbus tubing and Reynolds tubing.........the Jack Taylor Bike video on youtube is great.......I hope I gave you someplace to start
Likes For homelessjoe:
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Cambridge UK
Posts: 852
Bikes: 1903 24 spd Sunbeam, 1927 Humber, 3 1930 Raleighs, 2 1940s Sunbeams, 2 1940s Raleighs, Rudge, 1950s Robin Hood, 1958 Claud Butler, 2 1973 Colnago Supers, Eddie Merckx, 2 1980 Holdsworth, EG Bates funny TT bike, another 6 or so 1990s bikes
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 331 Post(s)
Liked 332 Times
in
185 Posts
The Veteran-Cycle Club has an extensive online library that covers just about every British marque (as well a others) ever made - many of them in extraordinary detail.
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Near Pottstown, PA: 30 miles NW of Philadelphia
Posts: 2,186
Bikes: 2 Trek Mtn, Cannondale R600 road, 6 vintage road bikes
Mentioned: 83 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 472 Post(s)
Liked 1,028 Times
in
404 Posts
Another suggestion: considering how "versitle" the English language is, work on what "manufacture" means to you. Steel bikes were/are created in many environments. One person creating one all by hand, one at a time. A small shop, maybe 2 or 3 people. A small business, like Carlton, Worksop, creating 100/month or 1000/month. Huge operations like Raleigh Nottingham creating I-donno-how-many/month. In the 1880's Crescent, Chicago used to regularly fill 40' rail cars with bikes to be hauled to east coast markets. To many folks "manufacture" means the large or very large operations.
What do you mean? The answer will influence the information you need as the manufacturing technologies are different, tailored to the volumes planned. If you intend to address all the possibilities you're gonna need more than 5 pages and more time.
What do you mean? The answer will influence the information you need as the manufacturing technologies are different, tailored to the volumes planned. If you intend to address all the possibilities you're gonna need more than 5 pages and more time.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 2,648
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 478 Post(s)
Liked 634 Times
in
336 Posts
Have a look at
and you will see a complete view end to end of how Raleigh in particular made their bikes; it might give you the inspiration for your report.
Likes For markk900:
#6
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Sorry I can't be more decisive on my particular topic of writing, I'm still trying to get an idea what would provide a good contrast with a modern bike, whilst still being easily researched (unfortunately I don't have a vast amount of time to get my sources ready).
#7
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Have a look at https://youtu.be/XOE0DbfWqyo and you will see a complete view end to end of how Raleigh in particular made their bikes; it might give you the inspiration for your report.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,154
Mentioned: 481 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3808 Post(s)
Liked 6,676 Times
in
2,607 Posts
Likes For nlerner:
#9
framebuilder
oj, an American bicycle frame building teacher here. I learned how to make bicycle frames at Ellis Briggs in Shipley, West Yorkshire in 1975. This was in the era when adult Americans had just started to be interested in bicycling for sport or recreation again. The art of the craft for upper end bicycles had been mostly lost in the US after WWII. Paul Gibson is now the owner of the bicycle shop after the grandsons of the original owners sold him the business. He learned how to build frames too during the many years he worked there and in addition also took my class in Michigan. Here is a brief outline of how a steel lugged frame is made:
1st, the design of the frame is created. If it is a custom one-off frame the design will be based (or at least influenced) by the customer's position on a bicycle and the kind of riding he will do.
2nd, frame materials are chosen and shaped to match its design. This will include the brand of tubing as well as its wall thickness (tubing comes in various wall thicknesses and diameters). There are various types of lugs and dropouts and braze-ons that can be chosen. They are reamed to size and irregularities filed away.
3rd, the ends of the tubes are mitered to match the shape of the adjoining tube. This can be filed by hand or with the help of a lathe or mill.
4th, the frame is brazed together using either bronze (Americans usually say "brass" even though it is really bronze) or silver. TIG welding to make frames came later.
5th, the frame is aligned during the brazing process to make sure all the tubes are in the same plane and the dropouts are equidistant to its plane.
6th, finish filing is done to improve the shape and appearance of each joint.
7th, the frame is painted.
1st, the design of the frame is created. If it is a custom one-off frame the design will be based (or at least influenced) by the customer's position on a bicycle and the kind of riding he will do.
2nd, frame materials are chosen and shaped to match its design. This will include the brand of tubing as well as its wall thickness (tubing comes in various wall thicknesses and diameters). There are various types of lugs and dropouts and braze-ons that can be chosen. They are reamed to size and irregularities filed away.
3rd, the ends of the tubes are mitered to match the shape of the adjoining tube. This can be filed by hand or with the help of a lathe or mill.
4th, the frame is brazed together using either bronze (Americans usually say "brass" even though it is really bronze) or silver. TIG welding to make frames came later.
5th, the frame is aligned during the brazing process to make sure all the tubes are in the same plane and the dropouts are equidistant to its plane.
6th, finish filing is done to improve the shape and appearance of each joint.
7th, the frame is painted.
Last edited by Doug Fattic; 02-02-21 at 09:02 AM.
Likes For Doug Fattic:
#10
Cat 6
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mountain Brook, AL
Posts: 7,482
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 500 Post(s)
Liked 183 Times
in
118 Posts
I think Tommasini had a nice video shot in their factory, but in a quick web search I only found some bits and pieces cut into this video:
I'm sure the original I'm thinking of is out there somewhere.
#11
Zip tie Karen
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Posts: 7,004
Bikes: '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022, '21 Tsunami SNM-100
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1465 Post(s)
Liked 1,542 Times
in
806 Posts
This isn't a quick e-mail research. You'll need to read a few books and take notes. Others have pointed you to European builders. For the US, read the book: No Hands: the Rise and Fall of the Schwinn Bicycle Company. Good luck.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Medford MA
Posts: 2,089
Bikes: Ron Cooper touring, 1959 Jack Taylor 650b ladyback touring tandem, Vitus 979, Joe Bell painted Claud Butler Dalesman, Colin Laing curved tube tandem, heavily-Dilberted 1982 Trek 6xx, René Herse tandem
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 964 Post(s)
Liked 1,451 Times
in
723 Posts
https://sheldonbrown.com/varsity.html
And here's a video showing a brief view of the process being used to attach chainstays. Around 0:17 to 0:27.
I think the discussion at the end of the Sheldon article is interesting. I wonder if they had just hung on a little longer, if we'd have a competitive high-quality lightweight factory means of producing steel frames. Or would cheap labor nullify any gains that could be made from machines? Who knows.
__________________
Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
Last edited by scarlson; 02-02-21 at 10:34 AM.
Likes For scarlson:
#13
2k miles from the midwest
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,964
Bikes: ~'75 Colin Laing, '80s Schwinn SuperSport 650b, ex-Backroads ti project...
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 525 Post(s)
Liked 931 Times
in
446 Posts
Umm, slowly.
Sorry, my smart assed comment for the day.
Sorry, my smart assed comment for the day.
#14
framebuilder
There are 2 places in England designed to teach custom bicycle frame building. The Bicycle Academy in Frome and Dave Yates closer to you in Lincolnshire. I've actually had students from both places take some lessons from me at our frame shop in Ukraine. A call or visit to one or both might be really educational.
There used to be lots of custom steel frame builders in the UK. There still are some. For a variety of reasons they have closed shop as the market and materials and methods of manufacturing have changed. Again with a bit of searching you can find ones that still exist and be able to watch 1st hand the principles of how it has been done for decades. The way I build and teach how to make frames has not changed that much since I learned in Yorkshire over 40 years ago. Processes get refined and expensive equipment have replaced hand made methods and tools but the principles are the same.
There used to be lots of custom steel frame builders in the UK. There still are some. For a variety of reasons they have closed shop as the market and materials and methods of manufacturing have changed. Again with a bit of searching you can find ones that still exist and be able to watch 1st hand the principles of how it has been done for decades. The way I build and teach how to make frames has not changed that much since I learned in Yorkshire over 40 years ago. Processes get refined and expensive equipment have replaced hand made methods and tools but the principles are the same.
#15
Disco Infiltrator
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 13,446
Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3126 Post(s)
Liked 2,105 Times
in
1,369 Posts
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: South of the Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 4,122
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1119 Post(s)
Liked 2,255 Times
in
1,311 Posts
Paul Brodie puts out some nice videos on bike building. This one demonstrates fillet brazing- a lugless style of construction that has smooth transitions between tubes.
Likes For Clang:
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Upper Left, USA
Posts: 1,915
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 634 Post(s)
Liked 444 Times
in
298 Posts
Use google search to find topics on bike forums. This website's built-in search function isn't very good. use this format: site:bikeforums.net schwinn factory
Then just swap out the search term. If you are wondering about the companies that made them and their respective industrial centers, lots of discussion on the different large manufaturers. I'd recommend "raleigh factory" for British, "schwinn factory" for US, and "etienne factory" for French. If you are wondering about the actual manufacturing techniques "electroforg", "fillet brazing", "lug brazing" would get you started.
Then just swap out the search term. If you are wondering about the companies that made them and their respective industrial centers, lots of discussion on the different large manufaturers. I'd recommend "raleigh factory" for British, "schwinn factory" for US, and "etienne factory" for French. If you are wondering about the actual manufacturing techniques "electroforg", "fillet brazing", "lug brazing" would get you started.
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Upper Left, USA
Posts: 1,915
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 634 Post(s)
Liked 444 Times
in
298 Posts
I am a little confused about your end goal though. Are you looking for the manufacturing techniques immediately leading up to carbon fiber? And are you talking about monocoque carbon only or are you also considering lugged carbon? A lot of early carbon was lugged and some manufacturers still use lugged techniques. If you are purely looking at monocoque, I'd say that TIG welded steel and aluminum bikes were the immediate predecessors, but if you are including lugged carbon, then definitely lugged frames would need to be mentioned.
Or are you trying to fit the entire history of bicycle manufacturing techniques of small handbuilders, large assembly line style frame building and large automated manufacturers (Japan, I think Panasonic in particular, was doing fully automated frame building in the 80s) into 5 pages?
Or are you trying to fit the entire history of bicycle manufacturing techniques of small handbuilders, large assembly line style frame building and large automated manufacturers (Japan, I think Panasonic in particular, was doing fully automated frame building in the 80s) into 5 pages?
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,606
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 581 Post(s)
Liked 921 Times
in
518 Posts
I remember seeing the video from the Raleigh factory a few years ago. I had seen the words 'unit brazed' on some old raleighs and wondered what it meant, then the video cleared it all up - the frame is assembled with the tubes in the lug sockets then the whole thing (one 'unit' = one whole frame) is put in the oven to melt the brazing rod material into the joints. I may be misremembering some details).
Funny how they proudly advertised the production method that was clearly meant as a cheap and simple way to make a 'good enough' bike frame. As my high school drafting teacher would say "Looks good from far, but it's far from good"
Comparing 70s Japanese frames to 70s British (and Canadian) built Raleighs is like comparing a modern Porsche 911 to a 1955 Beetle - they kinda look similar, but the closer you get the more obvious the differences are.
Funny how they proudly advertised the production method that was clearly meant as a cheap and simple way to make a 'good enough' bike frame. As my high school drafting teacher would say "Looks good from far, but it's far from good"
Comparing 70s Japanese frames to 70s British (and Canadian) built Raleighs is like comparing a modern Porsche 911 to a 1955 Beetle - they kinda look similar, but the closer you get the more obvious the differences are.
Likes For ClydeClydeson:
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Ann Arbor Michigan
Posts: 152
Bikes: miyata 83 1000,84 1000,83 610,88 ridge runner ,Schwinn 84 high sierra,88 Cimmeron,86 Passage,84 Stumplumper ,83 Mt Whitney,83 Trek 850,Merckx Century,PX10, RB1,XO 1 XO 4,bunch of stuff like that
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times
in
42 Posts
research
I think you will be amazed....I know I was.......that many manufactures are small one and two man shops ....then and now even with carbon......building them one by one....major names in the industry turn out to be a skinny little Italian guy with a torch.....or a couple of coffee drinking college educated bearded hipsters laying up carbon frames........research...Rene Herse.....he made the entire bike gears cranks fender racks
Likes For homelessjoe:
#21
jj
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 331
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked 110 Times
in
78 Posts
That sounds cool I've never heard of that, I'll be sure to have a look. Certainly sounds like a totally alternative method of making bikes
You're very right. This report I'm writing is to be part of a larger report contrasting the methods used to make a much more modern carbon fibre bike. It would probably be beneficial for me to cover the hand building methods rather than mass manufacture. I think something like Raleigh Carlton would be a good model to base my report off, since the frame were made using hand building methods, but they would still buy in the groupset etc.
Sorry I can't be more decisive on my particular topic of writing, I'm still trying to get an idea what would provide a good contrast with a modern bike, whilst still being easily researched (unfortunately I don't have a vast amount of time to get my sources ready).
You're very right. This report I'm writing is to be part of a larger report contrasting the methods used to make a much more modern carbon fibre bike. It would probably be beneficial for me to cover the hand building methods rather than mass manufacture. I think something like Raleigh Carlton would be a good model to base my report off, since the frame were made using hand building methods, but they would still buy in the groupset etc.
Sorry I can't be more decisive on my particular topic of writing, I'm still trying to get an idea what would provide a good contrast with a modern bike, whilst still being easily researched (unfortunately I don't have a vast amount of time to get my sources ready).
Some (not all) carbon frames are built not drastically different from how old steel bikes were- still just tubes mated to one another.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: se MIch.
Posts: 2,306
Bikes: 1938 claud butler,1983 Basso,teledyne titan,teocali super,nrs,1993 stumpjumper fsr,Paramountain,Paramount Buell(sold),4 banger,Zaskar LE,Colnago Master Ibex MTB,1987ish,.etc....
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 802 Post(s)
Liked 2,976 Times
in
1,496 Posts
consider Bilaminate/
#23
Senior Member
This video shows hearth brazing, which was used before gas-and-torch brazing was common. It also shows case hardening of bearing components.
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,828 Times
in
1,995 Posts
Here's the best article I have found about Schwinn electroforging. It shows the process in pretty sufficient detail:
https://sheldonbrown.com/varsity.html
And here's a video showing a brief view of the process being used to attach chainstays. Around 0:17 to 0:27.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX46Ioduc9A
I think the discussion at the end of the Sheldon article is interesting. I wonder if they had just hung on a little longer, if we'd have a competitive high-quality lightweight factory means of producing steel frames. Or would cheap labor nullify any gains that could be made from machines? Who knows.
https://sheldonbrown.com/varsity.html
And here's a video showing a brief view of the process being used to attach chainstays. Around 0:17 to 0:27.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX46Ioduc9A
I think the discussion at the end of the Sheldon article is interesting. I wonder if they had just hung on a little longer, if we'd have a competitive high-quality lightweight factory means of producing steel frames. Or would cheap labor nullify any gains that could be made from machines? Who knows.
The offshore wage that could be 10% of what was paid locally, it would take a tremendous amount of machinery and robotics to attempt to level the field.
couple that with the offshore makers could buy equal or better equipment. The end was in sight.
the electroforged process was refined to mimic fillet brazed construction. I have a Schwinn New World pre WWII, fillet brazed, nice bike
too labor intensive.
Schwinn was very vertically integrated, a good thing till it is not.
it was stated that steel strip arrived and bicycles left.
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Point Reyes Station, California
Posts: 4,527
Bikes: Indeed!
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1506 Post(s)
Liked 3,469 Times
in
1,131 Posts