livedarklions

Well, that bit of hyperbole is entirely your own invention, but how many drunk operators going 30+ mph on city streets do you need before you think it would be a problem worth addressing?

Fast ebikes are going to get cheaper as the technology and economies of scale continue to advance. This is an utterly foreseeable problem and that's not even including other people whose impairments would prevent them from getting a drivers license or, for that matter, 11 year olds.

Are you really claiming that there isn't any point you'd classify an ebike as a motorcycle requiring a license as long as it has pedals just because there hasn't been a problem yet? You're just going to ignore the obvious fact that the motors are getting cheaper and more powerful and the range of the batteries is getting longer? I think the weight and speed of the vehicle are a hell of a lot more important factors for safety reasons than whether your legs could theoretically help power the vehicle. Go ahead, tell me why that's wrong. Otherwise, explain why your only logical conclusion isn't that motorcycles should also be unlicensed if you slap a vestigial pair of pedals on them.

PepeM

The thing is, "a bunch of powered vehicles capable of road speeds greater than 30 mph that you can ride without a license" already exist, most are cheaper than e-bikes, and I don't see them causing any major issues that should have entire forums up in arms.

Would I be ok with "e-bikes" capable of riding at any speed to be legal to ride unlicensed? Probably not. I am ok with the current 20 mph and 28 mph models to be ridden unlicensed though. If they become ubiquitous and children are getting run over on MUPs all across the nation by them, then I will gladly reconsider, but my guess is that it will not become an issue worth expanding bureaucracies for.

While on the topic of licensing, do you want to know what I find more problematic? That you can go get a motorcycle license by doing a test on a parking lot on your buddy's scooter, and an hour later proceed to buy a liter bike capable of going 200 mph. You can even ride it without a helmet in many states.

livedarklions

I'm probably ok with 28 mph being street legal, but not MUP legal. I don't agree that waiting for people to get killed is good legislative policy, however.

I'm in NH. You can only get a MC license after you've gotten a DL, and it involves either a DMV MC written and skills test or passing a certified class that basically does the same thing. States vary on this like crazy, but giving people without DLs motorcycle licenses sounds crazy to me.

Motorcycles are an inherently weird regulatory category. Cars have all of this mandatory safety equipment because of the speeds they can achieve, and with motorcycles, outside of assuring workable brakes, good tires, helmets and a gas tank that doesn't explode, safety features are pretty much futile gestures.

Phil_gretz

For the sake of perspective, what percentage of automobile drivers within a small city (say 100,000 to 400,000 people) after 8 pm would fail the 0.8% blood alcohol test. This is on any day of the week. Percentage of all drivers at that time?

By the way, the NIH study reported that 1 in 7 miles driven after midnight on a Saturday is driven drunk. 1 in 7 driver-miles.

livedarklions

Legally drunk in most states is 0.08%. I'm pretty sure 0.8% is likely legally dead unless you have a really extreme tolerance level. About half of people will die if they exceed the 0.4-0.45 % range.

Phil_gretz

Shoot. You're right. 0.08%. My bad.

Metieval

Point is, I am highly more likely to die from a SOBER doctor , or a SOBER police man (992 for 2018) than I am from a drunk cyclist. Even "IF" that drunk cyclist has Electric power, I am Not worried about my safety.

So tell me how many people have drunk cyclist killed in 2018?

As for Electric bicycles killing people. You are Projecting your hyperbole.

I see drunk cycling as a self regulating issue. People that can ride drunk probably won't hit people. People that can't ride drunk won't make it far enough.

Of Course at this current time I am HIGHLY more likely to be injured by a 'STUPID' sober rider, vs a drunk rider on the MUP.

I do not condone drinking and riding, I just don't see it as a very high threat to my safety.

livedarklions

NP. I only get that pedantic because someone could actually get in trouble making that mistake, not likely but never know. "I'm fine, it's just a .2!"

Phil_gretz

How about a cell phone wielding auto driver?

livedarklions

Is English your third or fourth language? That's literally totally meaningless nonsense.

I'm not bothering to argue further with someone who obviously doesn't know what "hyperbole" actually means.

Metieval

hyperbole = exaggerated statements.

Metieval

as dangerous as a cell phone wielding rider.

Or that (stupid sober) rider that has vision locked onto his cycling computer.

SayWatt

Not advocating for e bikes on hike and bike trails, but i would gladly prefer them than these guys.... or at least force the each e bikers to teach one or two of them there left from right to gain entry lol.

livedarklions

Glad you finally looked it up, but that's not something that can be "Projected". Don't think you would have said that if you knew what the word meant when you wrote it.

Funny how you don't actually catch me making any exaggerated statements, btw.

Also odd that you thought you had some kind of gotcha by pointing out that drunk cyclists don't tend to kill people when I made the point that's why cops don't take intoxicated riding seriously. Yet again, THE POINT IS that the direction of the technology is clear that these powered machines, if unregulated will get bigger, faster, heavier and cheaper so your current estimate of the probability of harm is something that will likely get obsolete in a very short period of time.

I see drunk people ride all the time, they can keep balance, but they generally go pretty slow because they're usually not the fittest people. Make it a matter of flipping a switch and they'll go fast, it will likely be a different story.

rydabent

What is the difference between a gaggle of E-bikes on a trail, and a gaggle of "real cyclist" wanna be racer boys riding over 25 MPH?

Miele Man

The "real cyclist" most likely have superior situational awareness and superior bicycle handling skills. Many of the E-bikers I've encountered on t he MUPs hereabout seem to have the same outlook as a tank driver = Get out of my way or I'll run you over!.

Cheers

work4bike

I see these bikes zipping around a lot nowadays -- becoming very popular. I don't mind someone is getting around faster than me on about 1/4 the effort, rather it's the people that (seems like all of them), that treat these fast bikes as they would a traditional bike, but just much faster. It's bad enough when a cyclist on a traditional bike breaks the rules of the road, but much worse when they do it at a much higher speed; let alone when they zoom down MUPs and sidewalks.

livedarklions

This is one of those dumb supposed "gotcha" points people make. First of all, why stick to 25 mph? Ebikes already exist that can go much faster, and they've gotten steadily cheaper. There's very few people who can ride without assist faster than 25, so right off, you're comparing at the top end of one group's capacity vs. the bottom end of another. Second, ok, so some people can ride too fast for the trail using their own power, and they shouldn't do that. How is that an argument for putting fast powered vehicles on trails?

burnthesheep

[sass]
Usually the real cyclists racer boys have a pair to show up to the weeknight worlds ride........on the real road.

E-bike racer wannabes already cut theirs off and put them in a jar on the mantle.
[/sass]

smullen

STOP Liking what I don't like!!!!

livedarklions

Whatevs.... I've seen enough racer boy wannabe nuttiness on MUPs, including people pacelining at 25 mph, bystanders be damned that I don't have to pretend it can't be a problem. I also think it's possible to ride extremely safely at 25 mph on several stretches of MUPs that I ride on regularly (sometimes at 25 mph myself) because they are straight, well-paved and lightly trafficked. I use my discretion on whether a stretch is ok to speed on, just as I would if I'm doing the same thing on the road.

Main problem with the comparison between fast pedalers and fast ebikes is that there's a figurative slippery slope problem with ebikes--if you say it's ok for them to be ridden at 25, then what about 30, then 35? Realistically, there would only be a very small number of riders who can do that without e assist, but with power, it's just going to be anyone with room on their credit card to buy an ebike. Also, the ebikes can currently run 500-600 pounds with riders and cargo, and those numbers are going to continue to climb.

burnthesheep

Hence the [sass]. It's a thing on some forums to bracket or change color of text when making a funny.

I gave up on that fast greenway stuff long ago. Too many people to hurt. I just use them once in a while to link up sides of town. I've figured out how to navigate lots of neighborhoods by memory and just use the greenway for a 1/4 mile or so to cross major roads and such.

Since it isn't really safe on our greenways to blast along (way too many sharp/blind curves), it's faster for me to link up the neighborhoods and maintain more pace that way.

I can see your point though if you're on one of those 30 mile long midwestern greenways where there isn't a turn for 10 miles at a time. Around here, ours all follow winding creeks and rivers. So you only go straight for maybe a half minute at most at a time.

livedarklions

I've never bothered to look it up, but the legal standards for paths called "greenways" around here are different than "bikeways", "bicycle paths" or "commuter paths". I won't even ride on something called a greenway around here because it's clearly designed for foot travel and VERY slow bicycle travel. I'd much prefer to ride on a road than a greenway. All of the types of paths are multiple use around here, but some are far better for biking than others.

rydabent

Or one of those "real cyclist" with his head down staring at his front wheel!!!!

rydabent

Ok how about this. Little Susie is riding 5 mph on her sidewalk bike. A regular cyclist is riding 15. Their difference in speed is 10 mph. Or a racer boy doing 20 and a special built E-bike going 30. Again the difference in speed is 10 mph. Same difference!!!!!!