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Leo: The 1960s Bottecchia

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Leo: The 1960s Bottecchia

Old 12-03-19, 11:25 PM
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Wheels are built. 650B Velo Orange Diagonales, 32h, double butted spokes. Nexus Inter 7 in the back, and the 1958 Sturmey-Archer GH6 Dynohub up front.



-Kurt
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Old 12-04-19, 09:06 PM
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Threw everything together for a mock-up, and also did a preliminary adjustment of the fork to 85mm (and the blades are tweaked slightly; that explains the Dremel hack job on the drops and the crown. Idiots).

But in better news, I now have a frame to ponder. And let me tell you, between that plunging bottom bracket, huge top tube (seattube is 60cm CTC, top tube is 61cm CTC), and the 650B's without tires, this is a frightening first look. I only hope that I'll have the necessary clearance for fat tires. The one and only gugie is sending over a Compass tire gauge checker so I can see what I can fit in here without going broke buying 650B tires.

The BB is currently sitting 8.5" off the ground, floor to center.



Looks like I'm signing up for long reach brakes. Really long. Tektro 900A long.



-Kurt
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Old 12-05-19, 12:56 PM
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I love frankenbikes. Well, not all of them, but I like this.

It depends on riding style, but I don't have a problem with low BBs. I'm able to change my cornering habits.
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Old 12-05-19, 08:49 PM
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Update time. Thanks to rhm, I now have a heavily used Grand Bois 650x42B to do initial checks with (it also does a nice job of protecting the rim while I'm moving this thing around).

I'm already feeling much more confident about the overall appearance and bottom bracket height. There's a fair amount of wiggle room in the fork for a larger tire too, even though the front wheel is very lightly installed (the fork is anything but straight right now, and I'm not going to bother tightening the bolts).

I don't think I have anything to worry about in regards to toe clip overlap this time...



Excellent fender clearance, though the tire hasn't stretched past 37mm as you see it, as it is too fragile to take up to pressure.



A shot of the twist in the fork blades - and ignore the wheel placement, remember the dropout axle slots have been attacked with a file by a hack, so not even the wheel position is reflective of the tweaks of the blades themselves. I need to pull the left blade forward (or the rear back, depending on which blade is the culprit), re-align the drops, and then file a new curve in the drops to fix the disaster made by the PO:



Originally Posted by noglider View Post
I love frankenbikes. Well, not all of them, but I like this.

It depends on riding style, but I don't have a problem with low BBs. I'm able to change my cornering habits.
I'm hoping it comes out less frankenbike, and more like a 650B version of my Schwinn Superior - but with porteur bars. Funny thing is that the BB on my 1980 Raleigh Sports is a whole inch higher up than the Superior. You'd think a city bicycle would have a lower BB than a semi-professional crit racer...



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Old 12-06-19, 06:58 AM
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Hi Kurt,

What light system will you power with the GH6? I'm using a B&M IQ-X plus the "Secula" tail lamp with my '62 GH6 for my Peugeot commuter / randoneurring bike. Folks seem to have good results with the Sturmey dynohub + modern LED combo. I'm thinking that if I decide the performance isn't what I want for long term, I'm going to pursue this magnet upgrade:

https://minisystem.blogspot.com/2011...t-upgrade.html
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Old 12-06-19, 07:57 PM
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Well, 42's it is. gugie loaned me his tire checker, and 48's aren't fitting in the chainstays. Close, but no cigar.




I already know the 42 will work in front, and this confirms it'll work in back:



I also owe rhm a great deal of thanks for sending me that Grand Bois tire. I hadn't considered putting tan tires on this build - now I know they'll be just the ticket.

Originally Posted by Ged117 View Post
Hi Kurt,

What light system will you power with the GH6? I'm using a B&M IQ-X plus the "Secula" tail lamp with my '62 GH6 for my Peugeot commuter / randoneurring bike. Folks seem to have good results with the Sturmey dynohub + modern LED combo. I'm thinking that if I decide the performance isn't what I want for long term, I'm going to pursue this magnet upgrade:

https://minisystem.blogspot.com/2011...t-upgrade.html
No idea, really. I've seen the magnet upgrade before; I've considered that it's also possible (and probably pretty interesting for experiments) to 3D print the magnet adapter. Don't know if one could run larger magnets like that or not...

Do tell, are you running any zener diodes in-line with the GH6? Or straight to the B&M light?

-Kurt
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Old 12-07-19, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Well, 42's it is. gugie loaned me his tire checker, and 48's aren't fitting in the chainstays. Close, but no cigar.




I already know the 42 will work in front, and this confirms it'll work in back:



I also owe rhm a great deal of thanks for sending me that Grand Bois tire. I hadn't considered putting tan tires on this build - now I know they'll be just the ticket.



No idea, really. I've seen the magnet upgrade before; I've considered that it's also possible (and probably pretty interesting for experiments) to 3D print the magnet adapter. Don't know if one could run larger magnets like that or not...

Do tell, are you running any zener diodes in-line with the GH6? Or straight to the B&M light?

-Kurt
For my Superbe, I'm running one of those Nicelite XGEN2 regulators at the hub terminal to protect the LEDs I will use in the front and rear lamp. I haven't quite figured out the wiring - the bike has an FSU which adds complications (I think I'm missing the spring at the bottom of the battery tube). I'd like to re-wire the whole thing but am not sure where to start.

For the Peugeot and the IQ-X (plus Secula rear with standlight), I figured that the over voltage protection in the B&M headlight would do the job. I just have to figure out how to connect it to the Sturmey hub. I'm guessing I can buy connector wires with crimps attached for the terminals on the hub.

At any rate, your project is very cool. I'm going to fit wider tires on the new 700c rims for my bike too.
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Old 12-07-19, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ged117 View Post
For my Superbe, I'm running one of those Nicelite XGEN2 regulators at the hub terminal to protect the LEDs I will use in the front and rear lamp. I haven't quite figured out the wiring - the bike has an FSU which adds complications (I think I'm missing the spring at the bottom of the battery tube). I'd like to re-wire the whole thing but am not sure where to start.

For the Peugeot and the IQ-X (plus Secula rear with standlight), I figured that the over voltage protection in the B&M headlight would do the job. I just have to figure out how to connect it to the Sturmey hub. I'm guessing I can buy connector wires with crimps attached for the terminals on the hub.

At any rate, your project is very cool. I'm going to fit wider tires on the new 700c rims for my bike too.
The Bottecchia had enough clearance to squeeze 700x38C's in there, but I figured the fender clearance would be a problem.

Do tell, have you put either the IQ-X and Secula to work yet? The Sturmey only puts out 1.8W as opposed to 2.4 or 3W of modern generator hubs, and I've read nothing but conflicting or indeterminate information as to whether this will work with modern LEDs wired direct, or whether they need something in-line (much less the Nicelite, which IIRC are a pair of zeners soldered together, back to back).

-Kurt
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Old 12-07-19, 09:59 AM
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I'm enjoying the build so far.

Any concerns about crank length here? That 3-pin Shimano set you mentioned will look nice on this.
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Old 12-07-19, 11:10 AM
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That tire checker is clever!
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Old 12-07-19, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by BFisher View Post
I'm enjoying the build so far.

Any concerns about crank length here? That 3-pin Shimano set you mentioned will look nice on this.
I'm pretty sure I won't have any issues with toe clip overlap, and the BB drop - thankfully - appears to work out to a very decent 10" factoring in tires mounted.

If I could find one of these sets. I'm almost tempted to use a Sun XCD crank instead, but I think the XCD suffers from the same cookie-cutter look that many of the retro cranks seem to suffer from. The Shimano GC-100 appears a bit more engineered and refined.

Originally Posted by noglider View Post
That tire checker is clever!
That it is. According to that gauge, If I put 26"/559's on the Bottecchia, I could fit 48's

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Old 12-08-19, 08:01 PM
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I found time to frustrate myself with the bent fork tonight in the Park vise. Somehow, I was able to get it straight and look it too.

A part of me really doesn't want to screw up the adjacent dropout just to bring the curvature in line with the hack job, so I threw some J.B. Weld at the damaged side. Maybe it'll work. Maybe it'll crumble when tightened.

But if I can get away with fix it, file it, **** it...I'll try it.






-Kurt
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Old 12-09-19, 05:24 PM
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I just discovered someone in Taiwan or China is making long-reach, modern roller cam brakes which somehow went the way of unobtanium and...well, I think they're a shoe-in.

Just quirky enough, modern yet vintage, and with the right reach.



-Kurt
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Old 12-09-19, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
The Bottecchia had enough clearance to squeeze 700x38C's in there, but I figured the fender clearance would be a problem.

Do tell, have you put either the IQ-X and Secula to work yet? The Sturmey only puts out 1.8W as opposed to 2.4 or 3W of modern generator hubs, and I've read nothing but conflicting or indeterminate information as to whether this will work with modern LEDs wired direct, or whether they need something in-line (much less the Nicelite, which IIRC are a pair of zeners soldered together, back to back).

-Kurt
I haven't yet - but others on the forum have successfully set up a B&M light with the Sturmey dynohub with good results. I'm going to start there. Once the bike is whole, I'm going to post an update. Long-term wise, I like your thinking re: 3D printing a new magnet holder. That wasn't an available option back in '12 when the minisystem blogger posted the plans for the magnet upgrade. The magnets themselves are cheap.
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Old 12-10-19, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Ged117 View Post
I haven't yet - but others on the forum have successfully set up a B&M light with the Sturmey dynohub with good results. I'm going to start there. Once the bike is whole, I'm going to post an update. Long-term wise, I like your thinking re: 3D printing a new magnet holder. That wasn't an available option back in '12 when the minisystem blogger posted the plans for the magnet upgrade. The magnets themselves are cheap.
All good ideas. Soon as I'm happy with the build and overall feel and fit, I'll start considering the lighting options (and possible Dynohub modifications).

-Kurt
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Old 12-10-19, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
I just discovered someone in Taiwan or China is making long-reach, modern roller cam brakes which somehow went the way of unobtanium and...well, I think they're a shoe-in.

Just quirky enough, modern yet vintage, and with the right reach.



-Kurt
One of the mainland China companies made a version of those 25-30 years ago. Lee Chi, I think. Cheesy finish, and a MAFAC-style brake shoe attachment. They were OEM on some bottom end MTB's, Columbia or Roadmaster or the like.

The ones I'm referring to are terrible brakes. I don't know about the ones in your photo, but I'd be cautious.
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Old 12-10-19, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
One of the mainland China companies made a version of those 25-30 years ago. Lee Chi, I think. Cheesy finish, and a MAFAC-style brake shoe attachment. They were OEM on some bottom end MTB's, Columbia or Roadmaster or the like.

The ones I'm referring to are terrible brakes. I don't know about the ones in your photo, but I'd be cautious.
These scissor brakes? Looks like low-end crap to me.



The one fellow who has used the new, aluminum roller cams had good things to say about them. The brake arm fittings also look half decent. Could probably be shaped and polished nicely.

-Kurt
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Old 12-11-19, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
These scissor brakes? Looks like low-end crap to me.



The one fellow who has used the new, aluminum roller cams had good things to say about them. The brake arm fittings also look half decent. Could probably be shaped and polished nicely.

-Kurt
Yup, that's them, and yes, I said cheesy, I said terrible, and I mentioned the name of the manufacturer. You said low end crap. Sounds to me like we agree. The impression I got is that, it's a bad design, executed badly.

Brian Chapman posted pics on Flickr of a set of brakes he made along this design. Real consructeur stuff, brazed up from steel tubing etc, very cool. I don't remember what he said about them, but I gather they weren't bad. So maybe the design has potential.
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Old 12-11-19, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
Yup, that's them, and yes, I said cheesy, I said terrible, and I mentioned the name of the manufacturer. You said low end crap. Sounds to me like we agree. The impression I got is that, it's a bad design, executed badly.

Brian Chapman posted pics on Flickr of a set of brakes he made along this design. Real consructeur stuff, brazed up from steel tubing etc, very cool. I don't remember what he said about them, but I gather they weren't bad. So maybe the design has potential.
Believe me, we agree. Wouldn't put that low-end scissor crap on the Bottecchia.

The newer roller cam looks decent though; something along the lines of a Tektro 900A. I wouldn't mind giving one at least a test, but it looks as if it'll be enough of a task just to find someone who carries the things.

-Kurt
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Old 12-13-19, 10:25 AM
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After all that, I still had to file a fair amount of the dropout. Not much JB Weld is left, but one could say that's a good thing too.



Nailed it.



I've resolved that there's no way that I'll ever get that slight twist out of the right fork blade. Who knows - it might have been jigged up poorly when it was new. Water under the bridge - the wheel fits correctly now, and that's all that matters.

The best part of it is that the anal retentive part of me will not even be able to eyeball this during use once the fenders are on.



-Kurt
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Old 12-13-19, 10:33 AM
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How much longer will this build take?
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Old 12-13-19, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
How much longer will this build take?
About two weeks, if you wish to PayPal me about $1,000 right now.

I'll PM you the address.

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Old 12-13-19, 11:21 AM
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Is it just an optical illusion or does that drive side fork blade dip inward towards the wheel then flare away towards the end? (drive side)

EDIT: Disregard, I missed the note between the two photos.
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Old 12-13-19, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by francophile View Post
Is it just an optical illusion or does that drive side fork blade dip inward towards the wheel then flare away towards the end? (drive side)

EDIT: Disregard, I missed the note between the two photos.
Sure does, and I've run this thing through the Park fork jig quite a few times and can't seem to find where the kink starts and ends. The Dynohub makes it look even worse.

I've already lightly cold-set the blade outward; it was worse than this when I started.

Pretty sure someone stuck the blade cockeyed in the crown when they built this thing.

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Old 12-19-19, 09:13 AM
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It's raining today, so beauty shots shall be relegated to the indoors. Tires are Soma Grand Randonneurs. Don't look at the valve stem.

BB center is somewhere around 9-7/8" off the ground, and I'm calling that a win - because I have no other choice.



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