Richard Cranium

I don't think there is a meaningful way to isolate or trigger the status of "bonking." Since every athlete has differently developed energy pathways, the status of the "bonk" from one individual to the next is different. And the resulting experience and effects of these "deep-draw-downs" of energy stores are probably risking negative physiological effects not related to athletic performance increases.

After all, the whole purpose of the term "bonking" is to infer mental confusion associated with being hit in the head and rendered physically impaired.

Perhaps a better way to frame the original posted question would be:

TakingMyTime

Since the OP hasn't responded or added anything to this thread in a month I'm going to assume this was just a troll thread.

But, I've been sucked in so here it goes...
Regardless of the circumstances, effects or reasons bonking has on anyone, it is not a good thing. I have bonked severely only once in my biking career (25+ years ago) and I can remember it like it was yesterday. Not only was it one of the most disturbing feelings I've ever had while riding, it was one of the most disturbing feelings ever I've had in my entire life. How anyone could even think that this is something that should be worked into a training schedule is laughable, uninformed or a troll.

redlude97

it doesn't shut down. When you start to get critically low on glycogen it reserves that for brain function and your muscles have to rely on fat for fuel alone, but you are limited by the amount of mitochondria youve trained for. Its why keto/fasted/huge base riders only soft bonk after running out of glycogen. They can convert more fatty acids to ATP at a higher rate and also make more glycogen from freed glycerol via gluconeogenesis. Most of us only ever bonk hard when we're relatively new to the sport because we dont know when to start to ease off and we have a relatively low mitochondria content in our cells through lack of endurance training.

willibrord

Glutathion helps with your mitochondria.

canklecat

Regarding supplements of glutathion and other antioxidants, some recent studies suggest that for athletes, antioxidants (beyond what's normally found in a healthy diet) are probably doing nothing useful and may be hindering efforts at improving fitness. This article references studies on PubMed and other credible sites.

Basically it seems to confirm the old cliche about training for maximum performance: You gotta suffer to get better. Taking unnecessary antioxidants and anti-inflammatories may hinder achieving peak fitness.

Frankly, I wasn't pleased to read those studies. Burst my bubble about some favored supplements and recovery drugs. So I've cut out the antioxidants and daily NSAIDs for awhile to see what happens. So far, so good, but it's been only a week or two.

Carbonfiberboy 

I did the same experiment many months ago, relying on that same article and line of thinking. I did OK, but not better. Then I reversed the experiment and went on large doses of every antioxidant for which there was decent evidence. Bingo. I did VO2max intervals two days in a row this week and I feel great. Massive improvement, like I was 10 years younger. Maybe 15. Just a onesie though. YMMV.

Yes, I suffered .plenty. Suffering is the key, after all. "If it didn't hurt, I wouldn't be doing it." Ability to suffer is what we're after.

I never take NSAIDs except for very temporary tendon sheath irritation. They are bad, bad, bad. Haven't had any in months. Muscle pain is good. Recovering from muscle pain is good. I also say, "if my legs aren't hurting, I could be training harder." I went to the gym and squatted immediately after today's VO2max workout, 4 X 3" x 3', hour total on the resistance rollers. Yesterday was 6 reps of that. Yeah, my legs hurt just sitting here and I'll take tomorrow off. Feels good. Yes!

canklecat

Yup, I'm not sure I'm in the category of "athletes" for whom antioxidants and anti-inflammatories might hinder performance. Most studies still suggest those remain useful for many folks, particularly as we age.

My injured shoulder has healed well enough that I haven't needed routine doses of NSAIDs. My doctor switched me from fistsfull of ibuprofen to twice daily doses of small diclofenac. But I've stopped taking those too, just to see how it goes. Mostly I use CBD for chronic aches that don't respond to topical ice, heat and massage. My neck still gives me fits -- permanently damaged C1-C2 -- but I mostly use external stuff for that. Haven't even needed a prescription muscle relaxer or hydrocodone for a couple of months.

I do take bromelain, an enzyme from pineapple that's supposedly also a good anti-inflammatory for sinus irritation, and, I think, an antioxidant. But not massive doses and I'm not really sure it helps.

Supposedly CBD is an anti-inflammatory and antioxidant but the actual research is still kinda skimpy. It's mostly anecdotes.

I'm going to stick with the plan to avoid most supplements for antioxidants and anti-inflammatories for about a month and see how it goes.

My conditioning had plateaued for months but finally improved just the past couple of weeks. No way to be sure why. Might be the other stuff I take. Might be just the result of a gradual recovery and the stubborn body finally yielding to a fairly methodical training approach including intervals once a week, calisthenics twice a week, more structured approach to rides, more rest, etc. Whatever the reason, I'm pleased to finally get off that plateau.

Richard Cranium

Wow that's a horrible way to think about exercise - but unfortunately its probably true.

I got a kick out of the posts about supplementing diet with anti-oxidants. While it it true there can be better or worse diets for exercise performance - the bottom line is that some exercise adaptations require metabolic waste pathways to be stressed to affect any positive performance adaptation. Using supplements could be counter productive.

But hey, if you are making money running a research study - you may find results you want.

willibrord

The harder you train, the more supplements you have to take. Glutathion, CBD, Vit D, all have their place. Don't rely on studies specifically designed to show a supplement is uselss, especially if the sponsor will make money from that result.

Carbonfiberboy 

OTOH, I've not seen any study which has found an increase in intracellular glutathione from oral ingestion of same. Supplementation is complicated and requires study.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4684116/
and
https://examine.com/supplements/glutathione/
And there are more efficient and effective means of raising nitric oxide levels.

I haven't seen any studies involving inflammation resulting from training and CBD. Many words, but no data. There are currently 190 ongoing studies, but they all seem to be connected to specific maladies, rather than training-related inflammation.
https://examine.com/supplements/cbd/

canklecat

Scientific studies aren't specifically designed to show a supplement is useless. They're designed reveal data, wherever it falls. It's unlikely anyone would sponsor a study designed to undercut a market. It's usually the other way around. Historically agribiz have sponsored studies or tried to influence researchers to favor consumerism and market shifts, regardless of facts or necessity. Much of what we were told about "heart healthy" foods in the 1970s-on was BS. Ditto the current shift toward demonizing meat and replacing it with veggie based proteins. The latter is funded in part by agribiz to make up for losses elsewhere and to enhance their revenue. It's not about saving the Earth or making people healthier.

An optimally fit prime age athlete wouldn't need supplements to a healthy balanced diet, no matter how hard they train. I didn't need even a multivitamin in my teens and 20s to train for boxing or cycling. Any deficiencies in my performance were due to inefficient and often haphazard training.

We didn't really know much about optimizing training in the 1970s. Much of what we were taught was utter rubbish. Such as "Don't drink water during workouts. Just dab some water on your wrists and neck." In summer. In Texas. Idiocy. That kind of nonsense got some high school athletes killed doing late summer two-a-days for football season.

But with age or an imperfect human meat-machine, sure, supplements may help. Maybe. My doctor insists I take calcium and vitamin D because I have early onset osteopenia, mostly due to a longterm auto-immune disorder that killed my thyroid. But there's only flimsy evidence that calcium and vitamin D might help. Bone health is complex and there usually are other issues that can be addressed to help, ranging from regular exposure to sunlight to weight or resistance training.

Don't get me wrong. I take a metric ***** tonne of supplements. I'll try anything once to see if it helps. But usually there's no discernible improvement.

I do take a multivitamin and try to find those with iron, vitamin D, etc., although iron supplements didn't seem to help with my borderline anemia. I'm still on the low normal end after more than a year of taking iron supplements. So I'm switching to more iron rich foods, including liver. I like liver and onions anyway so it's an easy diet. Plus Southern style greens. Glory canned greens are outstanding, as good as my homemade greens.

I take large doses of niacin and l-arginine, which supposedly help with blood oxygenation and encourage the body to produce nitric oxide on the fly, best in conjunction with exposure to sunlight.

I take CBD pretty much daily. It's replaced my formerly massive intake of ibuprofen and smaller doses of diclofenac, a prescription NSAID. There isn't enough research yet to say for certain whether CBD really is an effective anti-inflammatory and antioxidant. But it is effective for relieving minor to moderate chronic pain. It gets me out of bed and on the bike or exercising.

Coffee. A lot of coffee. I'd bet many, if not most, athletes would say caffeine is their number one drug of choice. For me it enhances the effects of OTC analgesics and antihistamines/decongestants. And makes me fit to live with.

For a few months I've tried various brands of DHEA and pregnenolone. The most recent brands I've tried seem to help. But the biggest difference came from a beta ecdysterone supplement, derived from some plants and/or exoskeletons of shellfish and insects. Reportedly it works similarly to anabolic steroids, minus the nasty side effects. We'll see. Not much longterm research yet. But I've noticed a significant difference in two weeks. Not all of it good. I've developed the funk sweat stink of an adolescent boy during exercise. But the energy and recovery boosts are good.

I'm now averaging 17 mph on my usual 20-40 mile hilly roller coaster routes, where I'd been plateaued at 15-16 mph for almost two years. And when I break down the Strava data to exclude my usual long warmup and cooldown, my average speed for the bulk of those rides is over 18 mph, closer to 20 mph on really good days. For me, at age 62 and coming off a year long recovery from thyroid cancer and busted shoulder from being hit by a car last year, that's a phenomenal improvement. In 2015 when I resumed cycling after a 30+ year hiatus, I couldn't ride 400 yards at 8 mph without needing to stop and gasp for breath, take a hit off my inhaler and wait for the fire in my legs and lungs to die down.

The problem? The manufacturer hasn't offered independent lab tests to confirm the ingredients. For all I know it contains actual steroids. Unfortunately that's been a problem with many supplements marketed to bodybuilders and athletes. They'll market something as non-regulated, safe to use, herbal, organic, natural, whatever. But to make it actually work they'll juice it up with stimulants to give the illusion of an immediate effect (usually caffeine, sometimes various forms of ephedra or ephedrine), and actual steroids to give the illusion that the magical herbal stuff really works when it's the hidden ingredients doing the heavy lifting. So I'm wary of using the stuff long term. I'll finish this month's supply, then stop for a couple of weeks or a month and re-evaluate.

I'm not opposed to supplements, particularly for people who have medically demonstrated deficiencies. But I am wary and skeptical of some claims. I could attribute the moderate benefits I felt to placebo. But not with the DHEA, pregnenolone and beta ecdysterone. There's definitely something going on with those. And it's still likely I'm mostly making expensive urine.

wolfchild

No you don't have to take a lot of supplements when training and working out. There is absolutely no scientific evidence to support the supplement manufacturer claims that majority of supplements sold out there work to enhance fitness, performance or long term health.

Carbonfiberboy 

Probably true,

That said, there certainly are supplements with such evidence. One might also go a little further and include prescription meds. The difference with them being prescription "supplements" is a very great deal of money. Epidiolex® is priced at $32,500 annually. It's fancy CBD oil. I think that's sick.

For a positive example, there's inorganic nitrate, easily available in many forms like beetroot juice, sodium and potassium nitrate, See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4288952/

It's too bad that this discussion evolved and isn't a separate thread.