Jarrett2

You can find as many reports saying protein hurts kidneys as you can find ones that say it does not. Same site, newer report:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1262767/

chasm54

Research? Or just reports?

The problem with a lot of this stuff, and it is evident in this thread, is that the internet is full of confidently authoritative assertions about this or that. People will tell you of the merits of the paleo diet, for example, while betraying complete ignorance of what the latest research suggests that paleolithic man actually ate. Soy is supposed to be bad for you because it contains oestrogen-like compounds, even though the research that has been done indicates that those compounds don't behave like oestrogen in the body.

I prefer to look at the results of actual research. There doesn't seem to be much room for doubt that excess protein gives rise to increased acid levels, and that this places demands on the kidneys. How harmful those demands might be is less clear. But why make a fetish of consuming more protein than you can need, without understanding the consequences?

Jarrett2

Therein lies the rub.

What's the magic number?

79pmooney

I watched my sex drive (and satisfaction during) drop over several years. I assumed it was just age as I was pushing 60 and resigned myself to the idea it would be completely gone soon. I had been drinking soy milk for a few years, roughly 10-12 oz per day, soy yogurt (about a quart/week) and sometimes other soy meals including cooked soybeans. Read about the estrogen-like effect and stopped. I saw a noticeable change back to close to where I was before. I mentioned this to my doctor and he said it did have estrogen-like properties and that it is used in some practices to help women lacking in estrogen.

I have no comment on soy reducing fertility. But sex drive? For me? Yea.

Ben

tarwheel 

Excessive protein can lead to kidney problems, a risk that I was not aware of when I started following the Atkins Diet. I developed a kidney stone about a year later, the only one in my large family (8 brothers and sisters) to do so. I later found out that kidney stones are demonstrated risk with low carb/ high protein diets. To minimize the risk, you should drink a lot of fluids if eating excess protein.

79pmooney

Long before the internet, I saw a publication that suggested excess protein for endurance athletes slowed muscle healing because blood was diverted to the stomach/GI to digest the protein and away from the muscles that needed to be rebuilt. Also that excess protein requirements for endurance athletes, once winter training and muscle building after a lapse was over was barely higher than the requirement for a sedentary person. That source also used the ~.36 grams per pound lean mass mentioned several times in posts above. I used 2 ounces protein for my 145 pound racing weight as being very conservative. (And a number that was hard to stay down at eating 3-4000 kcalories/day just eating good whole foods and no animal products except yogurt, cheese and eggs.)

(Much of that publication was based on observances of native peoples and their diets, ie studies that while not well documented, were ongoing to the tune of centuries and millenia and not influenced by big food/pharma.)

Ben

79pmooney

Yes, dark pee is asking for pain you cannot imagine. I passed a stone a couple of years ago. Probably brought on by my love of beets and not drinking enough water. Drink lots. Pee light!

Ben

chasm54

It would be very surprising were there a magic number. Humans have shown themselves to be remarkably adaptable in very different environmental/dietary conditions. Contrary to the paleo diet notion, it appears that primitive diets were pretty carb-heavy and that animal proteins were hard to come by.

The navvies that built the canals in the UK in the early 19th century didn't get much meat, it was too expensive. They lived largely on bread and potatoes. The engineers who costed the projects budgeted for each man to shift (with a pick and shovel) ten cubic yards of rock and earth per day. That's about ten metric tonnes. Riding my bike for a few hours doesn't come close to that level of exertion, the idea that I need more protein than they did seems frankly ludicrous. No prosperous person on a Western diet is likely to be protein deficient.

PatrickR400

I'd agree. Plant estrogens are not human estrogens and not metabolized easily

ColaJacket

My understanding from going to a Urologist is that excessive protein only leads to one type of kidney stone, a uric acid kidney stone (which is what I had). And it really has more to do with Purines than Proteins. And it normally means that you have a higher uric acid content in your body/urine than others. And this can also lead to gout (which I've had a couple of bouts with).

GH

Willbird

Also consumption of huge loads of protein such as Whey protein which some sources feel may not be beneficial, or as beneficial as other more expensive forms.

Reducing protein intake while eating mainstream foods is more difficult than restricting just carbs. IE achieving a desired macro balance is more difficult than just restricting one of the 3.

But IMHO group photos of Americans shows that the "low fat high carbohydrate" combined with excessive intake for sure is not working.

Bill

Clyde1820

I typically consume between 0.7g and 1.0g of protein per KG per day, depending on physical activity. Focus is on vegetables, some fruits, lean protein and quality fats, with a minimum of processed products, refined sugars, starches. Consumption is across several smaller meals and snacks throughout the day. Keeps me strong enough, allows for reasonable recovery, supports the small-ish muscle gains I'm experiencing, along with weight and size loss over time.

Biggest thing for me is: at each sitting, consume some portion of fats, proteins, vegetable, fruit. Along with portion control, these two things have contributed most to reduced spikes and valleys in energy, improved energy, better recovery. Worst thing for me is skipping sufficient fats and proteins in a given meal or snack.

Of course, each body is different, given varying metabolism, intake, exercise efficiency, etc.

Aladin

DEPENDS... on your genetics, lifestyle and what your eat and drink with it. And the quality of the 'protein'.

EVERYONE in the 'diet game' is trying to SELL something. Mostly their own small view of the nutrition game.

SUGGEST.. studying INSULIN RESISTANCE. Larger view of the issue that is the root of our health.

Willbird

One interesting thing I read about insulin resistance, if you control your blood glucose through a revised diet, new muscle cells you add will not be insulin resistant.

Aladin

Never read that one. Caution as always.. so much of 'research' isn't statistically valid (if... that is significant).

Aladin

Your family history comparison .. understood. Buttt.... do all of you have the SAME lifestyle.. drink same water quality... etc. And.. genetic diversity might mean your the one who inherited said genes for stones. I'd be interested to see a scientific study of stones per the paleo type diet.

Have no use for Atkins myself... just a bellicose pimp who pushed our origin nutrition adapting somewhat to present day choices.

Aladin

Well said. Curious.. your weight and do you know your approximate BMI? Your exercise level.. intensity and hrs per week/or ?

tarwheel 

My main point is that you should drink a lot of water if eating a high-protein diet. I wasn't aware of this (or didn't do enough research) when following Atkins diet. I also was doing a lot of cycling, not drinking enough fluids and probably dehydrating myself a lot. My urologist told me that the best way to prevent kidney stones was to drink plenty of fluids. I have followed that advice closely and haven't had any more problems.

Dave Cutter

New popular ideas sell books, and DVD's, as well as attract Web Page clicks. So expect to continue to see new diet discoveries and read even more unproven ideas about the bodies functions, health, and requirements.

Or you can simply accept that most of the information is commercial bull-crap. Then pick a source at least has a science based (instead of product based) set of guidelines. Although likely also wrong... the CDC offers practical information that won't change based on some celebrity's endorsement.

Smart Nutrition 101 | Nutrition.gov

bassjones

I wouldn't trust the government resources either. The amount of lobbying that impacts our food recommendations by the government is shameful.

Willbird

Yea the government told us trans fat margerine was healthier than butter, and told us eggs were bad.

arex

Given what they now know about margarine, I'm surprised it's still legal.

GravelMN

That misinformation was based on one study that used a very small sample of men. It was discredited more than a decade ago for its extremely poor science. The beef industry in particular glommed onto it to fight the move toward soy-based meat replacements and it is perpetuated even today by the whey protein supplement industry. Subsequent studies show no ill effect on testosterone levels and the phytoestrogen compounds are mildly cardio protective. Phytoestrogens' effects on serum estrogen are complex but at the amounts found in even a soy rich diet do not have an effeminizing effect on males, despite the claims from some men's fitness and bodybuilding magazines. You are far more likely to have side effects like gynocomastia from abuse of anabolic steroids or testosterone supplements due to the action of the enzyme aromatase which will raise blood estrogen levels. This is why the abusers of anabolic steroids are showing interested in aromatase inhibitors, a class of drug developed to fight estrogen sensitive cancers in women. Genetic factors have a far greater role in determining your hormone balance than where you get your amino acids. The jury is still out on high concentration phytoestrogen supplements used for the control of cholesterol levels but even there the benefits seem to far outweigh the risks. BTW the #1 physical cause of ED in men over 40 is vascular disease (which phytoestrogens may help prevent or delay) not low testosterone.

I still much prefer milk protein (whey and casiene) concentrates and isolates for better taste and mixing, as well as their amino acid profiles. In recent years, pea protein has received a lot of interest due to its high arginine levels (which supports Hgh production) but it suffers from the same problem as soy protein. Though technically complete proteins as they contain all nine essential amino acids, they are are imbalanced as the sole source of protein in human nutrition. In particular, the levels of methionine and threonine are disproportionately low. In cultures where plants are the primary source of protein, you will see some classic combinations of beans/peas/legumes with grains like rice, corn, or sesame which helps offset this deficiency. Red beans and rice, hummus, refried beans and corn tortillas, bean sprouts and rice, and succotash are all examples among many others. Even if they didn't understand amino acid profiles hundreds or thousands of years ago, they were attentive enough to notice that these combinations improved health and vitality, especially when animal proteins were in short supply.

I'm a proponent of animal based proteins for at least a portion of your protein intake, but supplementing that with plant proteins helps keep the calorie count down while supplying all the necessary amino acids.

hopperja

A few words on low carb eating:

#1- excess protein is digested into sugars. Thus, low carb high protein is not low carb. To do low carb right, it should be low carb, moderate protein and high fat. From what I've read, this partly depends on what kind of protein it is, though from what I've read, casein and whey are most likely to convert into sugar.

#2- net carbs is a marketing gimmick. They subtract fiber and sugar alcohols from total carbs to determine net carbs. However, while sugar alcohols are difficult to digest, about half of them are converted into sugar. Say you eat an Atkins bar with 17 grams total carbs, 6 of which are fiber and 10 are sugar alcohols and 1 is sugar. You'd think it'd be low carb. But, the actual number of digested/net carbs is going to be 6 not 1 like the label will claim.

#3- while artificial sweeteners have no calories and don't cause an insulin spike, they do substantially reduce ketones. You can be eating 0 carbs per day, but drink the no calorie diet cola, and you won't be in ketosis for several hours, which of course will stall your weight loss.

I would suggest anyone looking for more info Google LCHF. It works for me.

KBentley57

There was just a thread a few days ago where I posted some stuff about this, but I'm too lazy to post it again .