Brompton, Convert 3-Speed to 6-Speed on a BSR-hub.
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Brompton, Convert 3-Speed to 6-Speed on a BSR-hub.
Hello All,
Im a fairly new owner of a lovely Orange 3-speed Brompton. I am bike-newbee and thought i would start to learn about
how my bike works. Learning by doing is my thought. So after a tip from a friend i have decided to upgrade my 3-speed brompton to a 6-speed.
Here i am at lost though. There are kits to buy for this. Different kits for different real wheel hubs. Thera are for turning a SRAM-hub 3-Speed into a 6-Speed
and turning a BWR-hub 3-speed into a 6-speed. But i have a BSR-hub 3-speed on my rear wheel. I just want to know if it is possible to upgrade BSR
to 6-speed with one of these kits without buying a whole new wheel with a BWR-hub? Or is a wheel with a BSR-hub just not made for upgrading?
Thank! //Brompton-newbee
Im a fairly new owner of a lovely Orange 3-speed Brompton. I am bike-newbee and thought i would start to learn about
how my bike works. Learning by doing is my thought. So after a tip from a friend i have decided to upgrade my 3-speed brompton to a 6-speed.
Here i am at lost though. There are kits to buy for this. Different kits for different real wheel hubs. Thera are for turning a SRAM-hub 3-Speed into a 6-Speed
and turning a BWR-hub 3-speed into a 6-speed. But i have a BSR-hub 3-speed on my rear wheel. I just want to know if it is possible to upgrade BSR
to 6-speed with one of these kits without buying a whole new wheel with a BWR-hub? Or is a wheel with a BSR-hub just not made for upgrading?
Thank! //Brompton-newbee
#2
Banned
It depends on the size of the machine shop you have access to..
may be just unscrewing the ball ring and only saving the hub shell and rim, swapping the internals
re lacing the wheel and changing the hub may be simpler .
The current BWR hub uses a 9 spline driver and cogs the (WR is for the wider ratio spread) the BSR uses the AW3 3 spline cogs ,,
an earlier model the Brompton Mk3, they went to Sachs in Germany, there the 1st 3 by 2 hubs were made using Sachs 3 speed internals
it was a .73,1, 1.36 hub , they machined a new driver , wider so as to accept 2, 3-32nd thick cogs a 13 & a 15
(skip tooth for gates 3 teeth were shorter. )
SRAM Bought out Sachs and shipped the German machine tools to Taipei.
plan B Sturmey Archer 5 speed adds 1 above and 1 below the AW3 ratios ,
Is 28 hole and still wint need you to buy the whole left shifter and rear shifting parts the 3x2 needs ..
Alt C
Also there are 2 speed cranks , Swiss Mountain drive Reduces a 50t to act like a 20t low, also a overdrive , a 34t acts like a 54t in that range.
both have a planetary gear in beween the chainring and the crank arm..
so when engaged the crank arm turns at a different rate, than the chainring .
may be just unscrewing the ball ring and only saving the hub shell and rim, swapping the internals
re lacing the wheel and changing the hub may be simpler .
The current BWR hub uses a 9 spline driver and cogs the (WR is for the wider ratio spread) the BSR uses the AW3 3 spline cogs ,,
an earlier model the Brompton Mk3, they went to Sachs in Germany, there the 1st 3 by 2 hubs were made using Sachs 3 speed internals
it was a .73,1, 1.36 hub , they machined a new driver , wider so as to accept 2, 3-32nd thick cogs a 13 & a 15
(skip tooth for gates 3 teeth were shorter. )
SRAM Bought out Sachs and shipped the German machine tools to Taipei.
plan B Sturmey Archer 5 speed adds 1 above and 1 below the AW3 ratios ,
Is 28 hole and still wint need you to buy the whole left shifter and rear shifting parts the 3x2 needs ..
Alt C
Also there are 2 speed cranks , Swiss Mountain drive Reduces a 50t to act like a 20t low, also a overdrive , a 34t acts like a 54t in that range.
both have a planetary gear in beween the chainring and the crank arm..
so when engaged the crank arm turns at a different rate, than the chainring .
Last edited by fietsbob; 10-23-14 at 11:10 AM.
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First,a wheel and a hub aren't the same thing. The wheel is the entire assembly,the hub is just the bit in the center.
You have two choices to go from 3spd to 6spd;you can have your stock wheel rebuilt with a BWR hub,or you can buy an entire new wheel. You have to make the BSR-to-BWR change because the BSR cannot take two cogs. Cost effectiveness depends on the prices you find and whether or not you plan to sell the old parts.
You have two choices to go from 3spd to 6spd;you can have your stock wheel rebuilt with a BWR hub,or you can buy an entire new wheel. You have to make the BSR-to-BWR change because the BSR cannot take two cogs. Cost effectiveness depends on the prices you find and whether or not you plan to sell the old parts.
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Even if you get a BWR hub or new rear wheel, you still need the shifter, and new chain tensioner that acts as the derailleur between the two cogs on the rear. This is really going to start to add up cost wise. You may be better off selling what you have and buying what you want. Do you really need the six speed?
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Brompton keeps a pretty close control of the BWR drivers in the parts stream, so swapping one into a BSR appears to be something that is not a readily accessible a approach.
Perhaps a wizard at IGH servicing might be able to do this, but it is unlikely to occur for anyone else.
The 10 speed set up sold by Brommieplus appears to do just that,as well, so there may be an outside source for BWR drivers that will readily fit into the Sturmy-Archer BSR and 5 speed hubs.
Where they come up with their supply is not clear, not that it would be rocket science for a machinist to duplicate this part.
It may be fun to think about a creation like this as an economical way to modify the gearing,
but in all probability one has to really appreciate the sport in pursuing it
because the actual economics of time and money probably don't support the modification.
Add to this the possible cost of the shifting system in the aftermarket, if needed.
I looked at this upgrade long and hard and was hard-pressed, after eliminating gear overlap,
to beat the factory set up despite the fact that its Gear Throws are much wider than I would've liked.
The 5, 8 and 10 speeds seem more fiddly than efficacious, though there are those who find them amusing.
There are some amusing, if hefty, 135mm IGH hubs out there
but, at their cost, I'm not sure if I'm not by doing the equivalent of buying a whole new bike to go there.
Perhaps a wizard at IGH servicing might be able to do this, but it is unlikely to occur for anyone else.
The 10 speed set up sold by Brommieplus appears to do just that,as well, so there may be an outside source for BWR drivers that will readily fit into the Sturmy-Archer BSR and 5 speed hubs.
Where they come up with their supply is not clear, not that it would be rocket science for a machinist to duplicate this part.
It may be fun to think about a creation like this as an economical way to modify the gearing,
but in all probability one has to really appreciate the sport in pursuing it
because the actual economics of time and money probably don't support the modification.
Add to this the possible cost of the shifting system in the aftermarket, if needed.
I looked at this upgrade long and hard and was hard-pressed, after eliminating gear overlap,
to beat the factory set up despite the fact that its Gear Throws are much wider than I would've liked.
The 5, 8 and 10 speeds seem more fiddly than efficacious, though there are those who find them amusing.
There are some amusing, if hefty, 135mm IGH hubs out there
but, at their cost, I'm not sure if I'm not by doing the equivalent of buying a whole new bike to go there.
Last edited by bikebikebike; 04-19-19 at 04:39 PM. Reason: details and grammar
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but it was a question I had and was updating, as a referenced data point,
As there is ongoing interest in drive train mods for weight, range and gear steps.
It appears Brommieplus lists the "N driver"and at only $23, but doesn't have them, though.
"This is the driver assembly fitted to Brompton Wide Ratio (BWR) hub, commonly referred to as the N driver, or BWR driver
This is the complete driver assembly including ball cage bearing, dust cap, pawl, pawl spring, and retainer clip
The N version driver is not normally sold separately from the complete hub. This item is removed from new N version hub and is new and completely un-used.
The 9-spline driver utilizes Shimano style sprocket(s). "
It was mentioned elsewhere, that Brompton would provide these to its listed shops for replacement,
but demanded the takeoff driver be returned to them.
Driver used on the Brommieplus 5x2 hub may be a takeoff or "third shift" product, it is not presented as OEM.
Old joke to go with old thread:
Customer goes to butcher asks "how much are lamb chops?"
Butcher says "two dollars a pound"
Customer says that "the other guy has them for a dollar a pound ."
Butcher says "then, go there"
customer says "but he doesn't have any"
Butcher says "look, if I didn't have them they would be a dollar a pound as well"
Last edited by bikebikebike; 04-20-19 at 02:33 AM. Reason: spelling
#8
Senior Member
It appears Brommieplus lists the "N driver"and at only $23, but doesn't have them, though.
"This is the driver assembly fitted to Brompton Wide Ratio (BWR) hub, commonly referred to as the N driver, or BWR driver
This is the complete driver assembly including ball cage bearing, dust cap, pawl, pawl spring, and retainer clip
The N version driver is not normally sold separately from the complete hub. This item is removed from new N version hub and is new and completely un-used.
The 9-spline driver utilizes Shimano style sprocket(s). "
It was mentioned elsewhere, that Brompton would provide these to its listed shops for replacement,
but demanded the takeoff driver be returned to them.
Driver used on the Brommieplus 5x2 hub may be a takeoff or "third shift" product, it is not presented as OEM.
"This is the driver assembly fitted to Brompton Wide Ratio (BWR) hub, commonly referred to as the N driver, or BWR driver
This is the complete driver assembly including ball cage bearing, dust cap, pawl, pawl spring, and retainer clip
The N version driver is not normally sold separately from the complete hub. This item is removed from new N version hub and is new and completely un-used.
The 9-spline driver utilizes Shimano style sprocket(s). "
It was mentioned elsewhere, that Brompton would provide these to its listed shops for replacement,
but demanded the takeoff driver be returned to them.
Driver used on the Brommieplus 5x2 hub may be a takeoff or "third shift" product, it is not presented as OEM.
#9
Banned
In the late 1950's I bought a 3 cog cluster for AW3 hubs (machined from 1 piece of steel)
but this was for my Old 26" wheel English bike..
Bromptons did not yet exist back then..
....
but this was for my Old 26" wheel English bike..
Bromptons did not yet exist back then..
....
Last edited by fietsbob; 04-20-19 at 12:54 PM.
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The unavailable item on Brommiplus N Driver Assembly (a|-Brommieplus-Products seem identical with what SJS sell under the name Sturmey Archer BWR Driver Assembly - ZHSA800 https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spar...embly-zhsa800/. It's true that this part is not very common but SJS has been selling it for ages - already years before Brommiplus even existed. I've never heard about a "return the old driver"-policy.
I like the closer ratios of the BSR and will consider this . At 30 GBP ˜$40usd it is a reasonable and not difficult option
#11
Banned
SJS, UK, does not ship Brompton parts to countries* with Brompton dealers..
you must go thru a US Brompton dealer ..
* IDK within EU.. or after Brexit..
....
you must go thru a US Brompton dealer ..
* IDK within EU.. or after Brexit..
....
Last edited by fietsbob; 05-17-19 at 08:25 AM.
#12
Schwinnasaur
#13
Banned
what is it ? show a picture ..
Sachs was bought out by Sram, now Sram has dumped the whole IGH sector..
Back in decades ago Brompton went from S-A to Sachs For the 13-15 2 cog driver equipped hubs..
the Mk 3 bikes ..
Good Luck finding any.. all of Sachs Production Tooling was un bolted from German Shop Floor,
and put in marine containers & shipped to Taipei..
...
Sachs was bought out by Sram, now Sram has dumped the whole IGH sector..
Back in decades ago Brompton went from S-A to Sachs For the 13-15 2 cog driver equipped hubs..
the Mk 3 bikes ..
Good Luck finding any.. all of Sachs Production Tooling was un bolted from German Shop Floor,
and put in marine containers & shipped to Taipei..
...
Last edited by fietsbob; 05-17-19 at 10:31 AM.
#15
Banned
Thera are for turning a SRAM-hub 3-Speed into a 6-Speed
I doubled my AW3 Mk2, and then the BSR on my newer Brompton with a 2 speed crank..
Lower range , cranks turn faster than the chainring , 2.5:1.. so 6 gears are in sequence..
Im Using the 15t cog on the BSR from rhe Sachs 3 by 2 hub era, they're 3 lobe
now Sun Race Sturmey Archer uses a 9 spline cog from a Shimano pattern ..
[hackable to put 2, 3 & maybe 4 on the driver]
...
Last edited by fietsbob; 05-18-19 at 09:16 AM.
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