Kdogbikes

Trying to get these 1st gen force brakes to work. Any help on setup would be appreciated

79pmooney

That's a weird cable/housing attachment to the brake straddle cable. Never saw it before and I've been riding cantilevers for 40 years. First thing I would suggest is to go out and get a seat pin brake housing hanger, a straddle cable "saddle" and a traditional straddle cable compatible with your calipers. Remove that roller on the brake bridge. (Same in front. You will need a hanger that is shaped like a headset washer. Now, perhaps this arrangement was arrived at because there are issues with the seat pin system or headset used. Photos might help us there.)

When you've "morphed" your bike to a traditional setup, we can easily help you fine tune the setup to work quite well. Cantilevers are a proven system. Developed to work well in the winter, the wet and in mud. I had my Peter Mooney built to use the 1950s version. (Mafac) Real stoppers! But my bike was set up around the then common hangers for all cantilever and centerpull brakes. That 1950s (or earlier) technology work so well that little happened to improve it. But dual pivot brakes and modern thinking pushed aside what worked so well. (Just rode my Mooney today and spent a minute or two admiring how well the brakes worked.)

Best place to get the appropriate hardware might well be the local bike coop or old shop with boxes of old stuff and an old mechanic who knows it. Bring your bike so he can see it. When you've found what works (and ridden it) you can go on the DiaComp website or others and look for shiny new models of the same.

Kontact 

Pads are upside down. Run them closer to the arm.

SW84

Need a few more pics.

soyabean

I admit the cabling is weird, but if it works and was invented by Shimano, then the same still applies: The canti arms are always perfectly vertical when braking in use, so the threadless pads and cabling must be adjusted to achieve that.

I'd have to make a video to explain better, but I won't be doing that so...

andrewclaus

Yes, more photos needed. I'd want to inspect the cable routing and levers as well.

Trakhak

As I recall, Cannondale came up with that setup for one of their early full-suspension bikes. I'd move the posts for the pads higher in the arms and then follow Kontact's advice above. Also, balancing the spring tension with the brake arm screws is crucial.

Andrew R Stewart 

This cable touting has been done for decades. I first saw it in the later 1970s on a local rider's bike, home made with bulky hardware. This routing effectively increases the leverage of the system at the cost of pad travel (per lever pull amount) and often one pad rubbing the rim when it won't retract evenly WRT the other side's pad. There were also cable stop locations on a "rocker arm" mounted on a third pivot located where a caliper brake or fender would mount.

I have had a number of customers with bikes using some sort of this mechanical leverage changing cable routing and most have complained about brake rub. We would readjust a couple of times for free (that "30 day service warranty" part) and press them to let us convert the system to the "normal" cable stop and routing. The dozen or so we did change usually had positive feedback. The riders didn't like the lessening of braking "power" but liked the lack of brake pad rub more. Andy

79pmooney

Thanks. I learned something re: this cable routing. (I'll still probably never venture past horizontal armed cantis and traditional cable routing which has worked so well for me for so long. And the scraped inner thigh from that canti arm while doing a X-country running mount; well that's not happening this lifetime.)

Iride01 

Do they work at all? Do the pads move toward the rim and make contact with it? If so, then it might be a question of loosening the pinch bolt and repositioning the cable if there isn't a barrel adjuster on the brake lever or in-line that has some adjustment left in it.

It might also be that the wheel is out of true and the pads are having to be adjusted wider to avoid rub so you can't get enough travel with a pull of the lever to get enough stopping force.

If the pads are on upside down, it looks like they've been there awhile and have worn in to that angle of the rim. But a single picture makes it hard to see everything that needs to be seen to really tell much about that.

Kdogbikes

Couple more pics Bike is a 92 Cannondale m700.





I unbolted rack and could see that the arms way outa wack. I’ll reset these and check pads right side up, and give it a go.

maddog34

it's a Cannondale "invention"... and they sucked, which explains why they were "first Generation"... the second Gen. also sucked, but they looked better, so.....

both generations are now considered obsolete, and only used parts can be found.
to set them up, attempt to get even motion from both brake arms at once... good luck.... one arm SHOULD have a return spring adjustment available.

sadly, the "adjustment" seems to frequently change after any serious off road, or wet conditions, use.
most C-dale owners tended to eliminate the setup and install a couple normal Canti-cable stops... the rear hangs from the Seatpost clamp, the front could either be a Stem-with-cable stop hole, or a plate/stop that fits between the upper race nut and top/jam nut on the threaded headset. a normal Canti Stirrup and Bridge Cable could then be used in place of the problematic C-dale gizmos.
Suspension front forks require a Fork Bridge mounted cable stop setup.

i recently saved a nice C-dale M600 from the scrappers.... the front got a susp.fork with bridge cable stop, the rear now has the Second gen. C-dale setup, since i just happened to have the "cam" rocker in my spare parts stashes.

PS.. the adjuster set screws LOVE to Seize inside the brake arms... and the part they push against tends to get lost... somehow... i was lucky enough to locate ONE good insert in my parts bins... out of over a hundred canti sets in those bins and boxes... and that one was out of a later version of a similar arm, so it required some re-working to fit.... outside diameter and engage notch both got ground/filed some.

wheelreason

So we are just going to ignore the R and arrow on the pad cause someone on the InterWeb said so?....

maddog34

Note the brake pads' Direction Arrow.... clearly visible in one of the pics....

FBinNY 

Few issues.

As others have noted, the odds are upside down. Also slide them up on the arms so the post is n aquire to the rim. If possible, slide them out so the pad is also supported by the arm to improve rigidity and get a more positive feel.

Now, understand how this deslign works. When the lever is pulled, it effectively shortens the straddle wire, and the pulley equalizes the difference so both arms move.

So, adjust the wire at the pinch bolt so the shoes open about 1/16" per side, and touch the rim at about half lever travel, allowing the other half for applying brake force.

maddog34

Did you happen to notice that the WHEEL is not Centered in the Frame??? That should be the first thing to be fixed. I'd look at the Axle Jam Nut area for any first re-alignment efforts... note the not-normal, extra large, Gap between the Freewheel and Frame dropout... some quick checks show a 4 to 7mm gap on bikes.... measuring from inner face of dropout to outer face of the teeth on the small sprockets... and i'd guess that extra gap comes from an extra jam nut being added to the axle to make that wheel fit a bike it was never built for...

Kdogbikes

Thanks for the replies My first C- dale. They advertise this braking system as being better than other canti’s. Anyways, I’m close to getting them to work. The front brakes work awesome, btw.Will look into a simpler set up later on. Cheers, Kevin

maddog34

once again... Note the Direction Arrow in Pic #2... that is the right rear brake pad imaged. That brake Pad is Correctly oriented.

and then.. there's the absolutely HORRID rear wheel centering... That None of you "experts" noticed...

maddog34

Get the Rear AXLE set correctly before wasting your time flipping correctly oriented pads or aligning them to that badly centered rim, ok?

or do the job a second time.... after centering the badly centered Wheel/Axle/Rim.

the rear Frame tubes already have a cable stop... in the the bridge a few inches above the roller...

Kdogbikes

good eye on axel area! Original rear wheel has a couple loose spokes knocking it out of round I put this wheel on to ride the bike around a bit, not even realizing how off center it is. Wasn’t able to get tall gear either bc of this. So yes, wrong wheel from the start. Pic of original wheel

DorkDisk

Force40 those things were called; I still use a pair of the newer versions, and I like it. I even a have a NOS set as spare. You also saw these on smaller frames where the cable comes from below (think mixtes)

The angle of the cam is absolutely critical. Its easier to figure out on the later version, the logo must be horizontal at rest, I'm not sure how it is supposed to look on V1.

Basically, these add another step to canti setup; first set up the pads, then set up the cam. Once set up, they work great.

Here are the instructions for V2, maybe they can help.

wheelreason

From the company that gave us aluminum frames without replacable dlr hangers, BB30, and Lefty...

maddog34

at least their Square Wheels idea never was produced.

when Caretaking the Washougal MX Park, Cannondale rented the track for testing their MX bikes once... they went home earlier than expected... no reason was given, but i did hear an odd squealing sound coming from one of the bikes right before they packed up and left... i'd guess it was a cam bearing/oiling problem... just a guess........ innovation is never easy.

i recall something about the reason behind the new Cannondale canti brake setup... something about it not allowing the stirrup cable to drop onto the knobby tires and lock up the wheel if a main brake cable breaks.... that was a big lawyer-feeding frenzy thing at some point...

FBinNY 

Yes, lawsuits in the USA related to deaths and catastrophic injuries from front wheel lockup led to the phase out of canti brakes.

In the EU, a long established standard required a way to catch the yoke if the main cable broke or detached from the yoke, usually a rod extending from the fork's brake hole. In the USA the brake hole reflector mount did the same job, but folks were never told not to remove it.

The safety issue led to redesign of canti yokes, and ultimately to V-brakes.

Kdogbikes

Ok…. Centered rear wheel/axle. ( feel like a real dumbass for missing this. Wrenching on bikes for over 10 years and still learning) And guess what ? Brakes worked like a charm! And rear mech hitting all cogs.