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"Dear Carleton"

Old 03-09-16, 05:12 AM
  #3076  
gycho77
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
I've felt a Columbus SLX frame flex under me as I've climbed and run out of gears. Doesn't help that I'm an out of shape fat ass on a 63 cm frame. Better gearing and better shape helped some.
Slx flexes a lot of because of the shape
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Old 03-09-16, 07:36 AM
  #3077  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post


Yup. That head tube is like 8 or 9cm. Waaaay to low.

I guess it makes for a smaller "compact" frame that is stiffer. But, look at what lengths you have to go to make aero bars work. Also, the "low is always better" trend in aero bars is over. Now that aero bar base pads are rising, so should the stack of the frames.
The under elbow pad spacers are actually faster than pads right on the bar, at least with enough separation in some cases. Besides, I'd rather have base bars low for standing starts so it doesn't feel like I'm trying to do them with my hip angle way too open.
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Old 03-09-16, 07:46 AM
  #3078  
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I tried and failed to get closeups of the Italian team pursuit bikes as they were things of beauty, Pinarello Maat frames, Campag wheels, here is a stock image of the team

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Old 03-09-16, 09:52 AM
  #3079  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Ha. I hadn't thought of the fact that molds are so expensive that it actually limits the available sizes.

You are dead on about the stack. Most track bikes have a short head tube. Until "short-n-shallow" bars like the Scatto came along, riders would use +17deg stems to get the stack back so they could run drop bars.



Shallow bars like the Scatto (and those that came after) have certainly helped with that.

My personal example, a 58 or 60cm frame would often come with a 11cm head tube. With shallow B125 bars (similar in depth to the Scatto), I still had to use lots of rise:



11cm Headtube on my first Tiemeyer (made as a Kilo bike). This head tube is admittedly too short. This is an early season "comfort" setup that's really high. But, still, I had to use spacers and rise stem.



Look what happened when I had a custom frame made with what I feel is an appropriate 15cm head tube:

I can run a nearly flat steam (-6 degrees I think) and the bars are reasonably deep. Notice the grip distance from the top of the tire.


I can run a -17deg stem and go deeper if needed.
The HT length is why I went to the trouble of getting my Pinarello XTRACK imported to the US. My 55cm frame has a 17.4cm HT. I also went with Argon18 for their adjustable HT.

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Old 03-09-16, 09:59 AM
  #3080  
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Originally Posted by Poppit View Post
I tried and failed to get closeups of the Italian team pursuit bikes as they were things of beauty, Pinarello Maat frames, Campag wheels, here is a stock image of the team

They are using Pinarello Maat
https://instagram.com/p/BCdosxckV9s/
I'm not sure about yhe model name
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Old 03-09-16, 10:31 AM
  #3081  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post

My personal example, a 58 or 60cm frame would often come with a 11cm head tube. With shallow B125 bars (similar in depth to the Scatto), I still had to use lots of rise:



11cm Headtube on my first Tiemeyer (made as a Kilo bike). This head tube is admittedly too short. This is an early season "comfort" setup that's really high. But, still, I had to use spacers and rise stem.


I give you credit for actually using the rise and spacers to get your hand position where you need it - a lot of people will just slam that stem and then wonder why they're so uncomfortable, even though their track bikes look how a track bike is supposed to look

Still, I wonder how much the stack of spacers below the stem on the Tiemeyer impacted front end stiffness and placed the steerer at greater risk of failure.... Spacers and rise are useful for fine tuning, but not an ideal substitute for an appropriately sized HT.
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Old 03-09-16, 11:28 AM
  #3082  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Yup. That head tube is like 8 or 9cm. Waaaay too low.

I guess it makes for a smaller "compact" frame that is stiffer. But, look at what lengths you have to go to make aero bars work. Also, the "low is always better" trend in aero bars is over. Now that aero bar base pads are rising, so should the stack of the frames.
So you're saying Wiggo's set-up is wrong?

I understand that track being such a limited market, there can't really be as much geometry variation as there is in road, but I'm at a loss for finding a frame that fits me well for pursuiting. A lot of [track] bikes these days have very long top tubes - I presume - to stretch people out to get them more aero. Additionally, for road bikes, HTs are getting taller to make that stretched position more comfortable. Pacelining on the road I watch my buddies pass me and their arms are stretched out in front of them; this is pretty en vogue for the way a road bike fits these days and it just makes me think that if we shortened the cockpit up, people might stop complaining about back pain. /rant

Anyway, for me, these long TTs and tall HTs make it especially difficult to find a pursuit bike. On my current 2009 Fuji Track Pro, I need to run a 40mm stem, and extensions under the base bar and I still feel uncomfortable. I've come to the conclusion that I have proportionally long legs. At present, I'm looking at 52cm and even some 49cm frames to get the right reach and stack measurements.

Originally Posted by wens View Post
The under elbow pad spacers are actually faster than pads right on the bar, at least with enough separation in some cases. Besides, I'd rather have base bars low for standing starts so it doesn't feel like I'm trying to do them with my hip angle way too open.
I am sort of an aero nerd and I can see how running pads right on the bars isn't as 'clean' as running with some risers. One can imagine airflow getting bunched up across the surface of the base bar, yet with risers there's more open space for the air to travel.

To be honest for a pursuit bike, I'd rather have a super low HT and subsequently a low base bar and then adjust my fit through risers. Not only would it offer some cleaner airflow, but it adds another fitting variable to tweak things.
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Old 03-09-16, 03:42 PM
  #3083  
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Originally Posted by TrackMonkey7 View Post
So you're saying Wiggo's set-up is wrong?
Yes.

But, I'm looking at it from a mass-start POV.

Originally Posted by TrackMonkey7 View Post
I understand that track being such a limited market, there can't really be as much geometry variation as there is in road, but I'm at a loss for finding a frame that fits me well for pursuiting. A lot of [track] bikes these days have very long top tubes - I presume - to stretch people out to get them more aero. Additionally, for road bikes, HTs are getting taller to make that stretched position more comfortable. Pacelining on the road I watch my buddies pass me and their arms are stretched out in front of them; this is pretty en vogue for the way a road bike fits these days and it just makes me think that if we shortened the cockpit up, people might stop complaining about back pain. /rant

Anyway, for me, these long TTs and tall HTs make it especially difficult to find a pursuit bike. On my current 2009 Fuji Track Pro, I need to run a 40mm stem, and extensions under the base bar and I still feel uncomfortable. I've come to the conclusion that I have proportionally long legs. At present, I'm looking at 52cm and even some 49cm frames to get the right reach and stack measurements.



I am sort of an aero nerd and I can see how running pads right on the bars isn't as 'clean' as running with some risers. One can imagine airflow getting bunched up across the surface of the base bar, yet with risers there's more open space for the air to travel.

To be honest for a pursuit bike, I'd rather have a super low HT and subsequently a low base bar and then adjust my fit through risers. Not only would it offer some cleaner airflow, but it adds another fitting variable to tweak things.
Just like there is no one bike for crits and TTs on the road, there probably shouldn't be for track.

How many people ride the same road bike in bunch races and TTs on the road? Why should we do the same on the track?
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Old 03-09-16, 04:47 PM
  #3084  
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That lack of cabling makes it a whole lot easier to swap bars, and we're cheap.
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Old 03-09-16, 05:31 PM
  #3085  
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Contradicting yourself @carleton. On one hand you are saying Wiggins bike is wrong as it isn't suitable for mass start yet say there should not be just the one frame for all track races?
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Old 03-09-16, 05:48 PM
  #3086  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
But, I'm looking at it from a mass-start POV.
My Track Pro with a longish TT fits me like a glove with drops and feels great in the thick of a bunch race, not so much in a pursuit!

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Just like there is no one bike for crits and TTs on the road, there probably shouldn't be for track.

How many people ride the same road bike in bunch races and TTs on the road? Why should we do the same on the track?
+1

I do wish that at least the companies who are known to offer good, accessible track frames did this. I say accessible because while the likes of BT, Koga and FES do this, good luck getting one. Planet X offers (offered?) both the Track Pro and the TOR, the latter intended to be more TT-specific. However, because of its even longer TT, I would have had to have gotten a 47cm in order to get acceptable reach.
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Old 03-09-16, 08:54 PM
  #3087  
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Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
Slx flexes a lot of because of the shape
That is a cool picture. I thought the rifling was supposed to make it flex less.
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Old 03-09-16, 09:03 PM
  #3088  
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Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
Slx flexes a lot of because of the shape
SLX flexes "a lot" because of it's diameter. Steel tubes featured in lugged construction all had to conform to certain external tube diameters to fit into the lugs available. Those diameters are relatively small compared to what is available today in steel, aluminum, or carbon. That's why it seems puny. SLX is a beefed up version of Columbis SL. It's essentially SL "Xtra". It was meant to be a stiffer version of the steel tubes available at the time it was introduced. Back then, it was as stiff as you could get in a lugged frame. What you see in the photo are reinforcing ribs. The reason the tube has that rifling, (the twisted ribs), is because when a bike flexes, it does so because the individual frame tubes twist. If you can align these ribs with the twisting forces, (to put the ribs in either compression or tension), you will best be able to make use of these minimal reinforcements. This is the exact same principle used in orienting carbon fibers within a frame lay-up. Back then, they knew the frame tubes twisted, but they didn't know exactly to what degree, or the force lines, so the twist rate of the rifling in SLX is just a guess as to what would work best.

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Old 03-09-16, 09:31 PM
  #3089  
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Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Contradicting yourself @carleton. On one hand you are saying Wiggins bike is wrong as it isn't suitable for mass start yet say there should not be just the one frame for all track races?
good news everybody! wiggins doesn't race that bike in mass-start races.

he races a cervelo (it's a street fixie )
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Old 03-09-16, 10:02 PM
  #3090  
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Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Contradicting yourself @carleton. On one hand you are saying Wiggins bike is wrong as it isn't suitable for mass start yet say there should not be just the one frame for all track races?
Yeah, I'm confusing 2-3 threads of the conversation.
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Old 03-09-16, 10:49 PM
  #3091  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
SLX flexes "a lot" because of it's diameter. Steel tubes featured in lugged construction all had to conform to certain external tube diameters to fit into the lugs available. Those diameters are relatively small compared to what is available today in steel, aluminum, or carbon. That's why it seems puny. SLX is a beefed up version of Columbis SL. It's essentially SL "Xtra". It was meant to be a stiffer version of the steel tubes available at the time it was introduced. Back then, it was as stiff as you could get in a lugged frame. What you see in the photo are reinforcing ribs. The reason the tube has that rifling, (the twisted ribs), is because when a bike flexes, it does so because the individual frame tubes twist. If you can align these ribs with the twisting forces, (to put the ribs in either compression or tension), you will best be able to make use of these minimal reinforcements. This is the exact same principle used in orienting carbon fibers within a frame lay-up. Back then, they knew the frame tubes twisted, but they didn't know exactly to what degree, or the force lines, so the twist rate of the rifling in SLX is just a guess as to what would work best.

Don't forget about Columbus SP. I think that was their stiffest offering. I replaced my 531SL frame with a SP frame and there was a world of difference. Then again, I replaced the SP frame with an early Cannondale which was absurdly stiff.
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Old 03-10-16, 03:21 AM
  #3092  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
SLX flexes "a lot" because of it's diameter. Steel tubes featured in lugged construction all had to conform to certain external tube diameters to fit into the lugs available. Those diameters are relatively small compared to what is available today in steel, aluminum, or carbon. That's why it seems puny. SLX is a beefed up version of Columbis SL. It's essentially SL "Xtra". It was meant to be a stiffer version of the steel tubes available at the time it was introduced. Back then, it was as stiff as you could get in a lugged frame. What you see in the photo are reinforcing ribs. The reason the tube has that rifling, (the twisted ribs), is because when a bike flexes, it does so because the individual frame tubes twist. If you can align these ribs with the twisting forces, (to put the ribs in either compression or tension), you will best be able to make use of these minimal reinforcements. This is the exact same principle used in orienting carbon fibers within a frame lay-up. Back then, they knew the frame tubes twisted, but they didn't know exactly to what degree, or the force lines, so the twist rate of the rifling in SLX is just a guess as to what would work best.
So are you saying that Slx is stiffer than Sl in real life?
I have columbus SL track frame(80's track frame). So I want to know more about my tubing

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Old 03-10-16, 07:54 AM
  #3093  
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I think there's a new SL that's different from the stuff we had in the 80's. Don't know how it compares or what your track bike is made out of. I just think lugs are pretty.
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Old 03-10-16, 07:59 PM
  #3094  
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Don't forget about Columbus SP. I think that was their stiffest offering. I replaced my 531SL frame with a SP frame and there was a world of difference. Then again, I replaced the SP frame with an early Cannondale which was absurdly stiff.
Some custom makers such as Serotta mixed SP down tubes with SL elsewhere to create a stiffer frame without unnecessary weight penalty where not needed, such as the top tube.
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Old 03-10-16, 09:02 PM
  #3095  
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Don't forget about Columbus SP. I think that was their stiffest offering. I replaced my 531SL frame with a SP frame and there was a world of difference. Then again, I replaced the SP frame with an early Cannondale which was absurdly stiff.
SP was made from the same alloy as SLX, but instead of the .9/.6/.9 wall thickness of SLX, SP had 1.0/.7/1.0 wall thicknesses. SPX also came in longer lengths, as it was designed for larger frames. SP also came out shortly after SLX was introduced.

For anyone curious as to how wall thickness and diameter effect tube stiffness. Wall thickness will increase tube stiffness in a linear fashion. Increase wall thickness 20%, then stiffness increases 20%. Stiffness increases by the cube of diameter. So increasing wall thickness might slightly increase the tube stiffness, doubling the diameter will increase it's stiffness 8X. This is for bending along the tubes linear axis. Torsional resistance of a tube increases by the 4th power of a diameter, so this doubling of diameter on a tube will make it 16X more resistant to twisting forces. It is a the torsional loads that allow the linear flex of a tube on a bicycle.

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Old 03-10-16, 11:06 PM
  #3096  
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Thanks for explaining the wall thickness.

When I had my first Tiemeyer made, I thought it was interesting that he asked me my weight and estimated max power output. He told me that he would use different tube thicknesses based on that to increase the stiffness when it was appropriate.

So 2 Tiemeyers may look the same on the outside, but the characteristics and weight would be different based on the owners' characteristics. That dude is a modern master.
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Old 03-11-16, 06:25 AM
  #3097  
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Hmm, I need to draw the fbd. Intuition is telling me that, since you have triangles, if you flex a frame something needs to be in bending. Going to need to put pencil to paper and figure out if I'm missing something.
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Old 03-11-16, 09:59 AM
  #3098  
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Originally Posted by wens View Post
Hmm, I need to draw the fbd. Intuition is telling me that, since you have triangles, if you flex a frame something needs to be in bending. Going to need to put pencil to paper and figure out if I'm missing something.
In addition to bending some frame sections are in torsion and shear, and often in combination.
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Old 03-11-16, 02:43 PM
  #3099  
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When I was a teen, I really wanted one of these: Rigi

Road Version:


Track Version:
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Old 03-13-16, 05:10 PM
  #3100  
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Took me a few seconds to work out that the seat tube was split... really messed with my mind for a sec.. interesting way of shortening the chain stays

Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
When I was a teen, I really wanted one of these: Rigi

Track Version:
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