Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Sidewalk/sidepath riding... a different view.

Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Sidewalk/sidepath riding... a different view.

Old 07-26-19, 06:31 AM
  #76  
Jim from Boston
Senior Member
 
Jim from Boston's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,842
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 663 Post(s)
Liked 53 Times in 44 Posts
Originally Posted by genec View Post
Take your poo poo right here... where would YOU ride.



https://www.google.com/maps/@28.0128...4!8i8192?hl=en
That road reminded me of roads on Martha's Vineyard, though more winding, and shaded.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
MV is indeed a cycling paradise, and I'm always amused to see MUPS alongside nice roads for cycling, with low-volume, friendly traffic.
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
That's a sidewalk, not a sidepath. Florida has minimum requirements for bicycle paths - that doesn't meet them, not even close.

(At least the sidewalk is not in the door zone.)

-mr. bill
I rotated the view 180 and just before the origin view is an intersecting road.

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 07-26-19 at 06:38 AM.
Jim from Boston is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 06:50 AM
  #77  
mr_bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,530
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1476 Post(s)
Liked 46 Times in 42 Posts
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
I rotated the view 180 and just before the origin view is an intersecting road.
Most people would call that a driveway.



-mr. bill
mr_bill is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 07:23 AM
  #78  
livedarklions
Je suis Snap Motomag
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 4,418

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; "Motobecane" Fantom CX

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2238 Post(s)
Liked 664 Times in 404 Posts
Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
That's an excellent road to ride on. It looks to me that one could ride on that road or on the side path. I would have no problem riding on that road. I OFTEN ride roads around here that do NOT have such a side path and where the speeds are also 55mph. Then again it's a side path way out in the country and not a sidewalk with pedestrians.

I agree that Generac is trolling now.

Cheers
I actually ride on a lot worse.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 07:50 AM
  #79  
livedarklions
Je suis Snap Motomag
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 4,418

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; "Motobecane" Fantom CX

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2238 Post(s)
Liked 664 Times in 404 Posts
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
That's a sidewalk, not a sidepath. Florida has minimum requirements for bicycle paths - that doesn't meet them, not even close.

(At least the sidewalk is not in the door zone.)

-mr. bill
I'll take the correction as being technically correct in a legal sense--but that is not what I would consider anything remotely like a typical sidewalk in any part of the country I've lived in. It's generally not the case that there would be a sidewalk through a length of land that vacant without it being designated as a path of one kind or another. I really think there's a reason most of these types of arguments come from people in Florida.

As a practical matter from the perspective of a person who has never ridden there and is just looking at the statute, the main difference between sidewalk riding and path riding in Florida is that the path riding requires lane adherence, and infractions on the path are chargeable as vehicle violations and on the sidewalk as pedestrian violations.

It might be interesting to know if there's a larger number of pedestrian vs. cyclist lawsuits per capita in Florida than in other states.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 08:12 AM
  #80  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 11,126
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1740 Post(s)
Liked 26 Times in 21 Posts
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
That's a sidewalk, not a sidepath. Florida has minimum requirements for bicycle paths - that doesn't meet them, not even close.

(At least the sidewalk is not in the door zone.)

-mr. bill
It's more of a MUP than a sidewalk. The "minimum requirements" likely are for new construction (older stuff is likely grandfathered).

It's named as part of the "1A1 Urban Trail" allowing cycling on Openstreetmap.

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-26-19 at 08:36 AM.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 08:53 AM
  #81  
livedarklions
Je suis Snap Motomag
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 4,418

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; "Motobecane" Fantom CX

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2238 Post(s)
Liked 664 Times in 404 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
It's more of a MUP than a sidewalk. The "minimum requirements" likely are for new construction (older stuff is likely grandfathered).

It's named as part of the "1A1 Urban Trail" allowing cycling on Openstreetmap.
I'm going to take the whole thing back because I scrolled up the road a bit and found this: https://www.google.com/maps/@27.9948...4!8i8192?hl=en

I'm definitely going to be safer in the street, 55 mph or not--that's a much bigger last second swerve situation from the sidewalk than the road--that's a completely blinded driveway, and there appear to be more like it.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 09:16 AM
  #82  
mr_bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,530
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1476 Post(s)
Liked 46 Times in 42 Posts
He's doing it wrong? (Nice Univega.)

p.s. Door Zone Sidewalk (DZSW)

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 07-26-19 at 09:20 AM.
mr_bill is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 09:18 AM
  #83  
Notso_fastLane
Senior Member
 
Notso_fastLane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Layton, UT
Posts: 921

Bikes: 2011 Bent TW Elegance 2014 Carbon Strada Velomobile

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 119 Post(s)
Liked 35 Times in 27 Posts
In most states these days, I think riding on the sidewalk is illegal, although enforcement varies widely.

The only place I ever rode on the sidewalk was when I live in Everett, WA. I had a route home that was 90% on a MUP, but the last 100 yards was uphill on a steep 4 lane road with NO shoulder, 45 mph speed limit, and really bad/angry/impatient commuters. I had several police pass me and never say a word, because they probably realize how dangerous that short stretch would be if I were in the road. I always gave right of way to pedestrians, though, and just slogged slowly up the hill without ever considering it a 'climb'.

Otherwise, I'll ride on the rode and stay in the bike lane/shoulder and take the lane as I see fit. I take left turns with traffic, stop (and make a point of putting my foot down so cars can see me stop) at stop signs, and otherwise ride as if I'm in a vehicle (I also ride motorcycles).
Notso_fastLane is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 09:53 AM
  #84  
genec
genec
Thread Starter
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,359

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6682 Post(s)
Liked 130 Times in 86 Posts
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
That's a sidewalk, not a sidepath. Florida has minimum requirements for bicycle paths - that doesn't meet them, not even close.

(At least the sidewalk is not in the door zone.)

-mr. bill
That is a sidewalk, a golf cart path and a bike path. And if you fools think you'll "take the lane" on the only north south thru road in the area, be prepared for big jacked up "Floridaman" trucks to give you a nudge and "help you along," "'cause that's the way I drive..." is a common excuse around here.

Have a nice day. I'm tired, this going nowhere, and there is a weekend coming up.
genec is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 09:59 AM
  #85  
Miele Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,031

Bikes: Miele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno SL, Miele MTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, VeloSport Adamas AX

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 281 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 21 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I actually ride on a lot worse.
I just looked at the street view in the link provided by another poster. Look at all of those nice intersections aka driveways that have bushes that would greatly restrict a driver's view of an approaching bicyclist especially if the bicyclist was riding on the right side of the path. I'd DEFINITELY ride that road rather than the path. That road has excellent sight lines.

That path might be okay for someone who is going to ride at near walking pace but for any bicyclist in reasonable shape it appears that the road there would be a far better place to be.

It seems to me that some people are just to scared or timid to ride on a road and they use all sorts of excuses to try and support their stance to ride on the sidewalk.

Cheers
Miele Man is online now  
Old 07-26-19, 10:46 AM
  #86  
mr_bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,530
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1476 Post(s)
Liked 46 Times in 42 Posts
Originally Posted by genec View Post
Have a nice day. I'm tired, this going nowhere, and there is a weekend coming up.
Bicyclist killed or seriously injured on A1A is practically a standing headline.

Even more amazing is the number of people on bikes on A1A who inexplicably swerve or turn left right into the path of a motor vehicle whose driver stayed at the scene, was wearing a seatbelt, speed and drugs and alcohol were not involved, such a tragic accident....

-mr. bill
mr_bill is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 11:13 AM
  #87  
bakerjw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NE Tennessee
Posts: 866

Bikes: Giant TCR/Surly Karate Monkey/Foundry FireTower/Curtlo Tandem

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
Liked 68 Times in 48 Posts
In certain stretches of the A1A, I could see myself riding on it. But... there are way too many drives in some stretches for me to go there unless I was just tooling around. I could see myself averaging at least 20 on that flat of a surface and there is no way that cars pulling out would see me in time.
bakerjw is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 11:43 AM
  #88  
mr_bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,530
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1476 Post(s)
Liked 46 Times in 42 Posts
Originally Posted by bakerjw View Post
In certain stretches of the A1A, I could see myself riding on it. But... there are way too many drives in some stretches for me to go there unless I was just tooling around. I could see myself averaging at least 20 on that flat of a surface and there is no way that cars pulling out would see me in time.
Just wondering, since you could see yourself averaging at least 20 on that flat of a surface.

When you come up to the area with those terrifying driveways, you can't see yourself doing something simple like applying the brakes and slowing down? So that in the unlikely event a car pulled out of the driveway while you were going by, *YOU* could stop?

And once you've passed that small cluster of terrifying hazards of a few blind driveways, and then picking up the pace again?

Think of it as interval training?

Or think of it as entering a feed zone?

Or maybe just think of riding at a speed safe for current conditions?

Instead of averaging at least 20 mph, you'd be averaging at least 19 mph instead?

-mr. bill
mr_bill is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 12:13 PM
  #89  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 11,126
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1740 Post(s)
Liked 26 Times in 21 Posts
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
That's a sidewalk, not a sidepath. Florida has minimum requirements for bicycle paths - that doesn't meet them, not even close.
Not appropriate for cycling (apparently).

Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
When you come up to the area with those terrifying driveways, you can't see yourself doing something simple like applying the brakes and slowing down? So that in the unlikely event a car pulled out of the driveway while you were going by, *YOU* could stop?

And once you've passed that small cluster of terrifying hazards of a few blind driveways, and then picking up the pace again?

Think of it as interval training?

Or think of it as entering a feed zone?

Or maybe just think of riding at a speed safe for current conditions?

Instead of averaging at least 20 mph, you'd be averaging at least 19 mph instead?

-mr. bill
Appropriate for cycling (apparently).

Huh?

=================

What do people do when there are no sidewalks to ride on?
njkayaker is offline  
Likes For njkayaker:
Old 07-26-19, 12:28 PM
  #90  
mr_bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,530
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1476 Post(s)
Liked 46 Times in 42 Posts
Sidewalks in Florida are not bicycle facilities, but people on bikes may use sidewalks. Both statements can be true at the same time. This isn't hard.

"316.2065(9) A person propelling a vehicle by human power upon and along a sidewalk, or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk, has all the rights and duties applicable to a pedestrian under the same circumstances."

-mr. bill
mr_bill is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 01:09 PM
  #91  
livedarklions
Je suis Snap Motomag
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 4,418

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; "Motobecane" Fantom CX

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2238 Post(s)
Liked 664 Times in 404 Posts
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Sidewalks in Florida are not bicycle facilities, but people on bikes may use sidewalks. Both statements can be true at the same time. This isn't hard.

"316.2065(9) A person propelling a vehicle by human power upon and along a sidewalk, or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk, has all the rights and duties applicable to a pedestrian under the same circumstances."

-mr. bill
The whole statute concerning paths, roads and sidewalks is pretty interesting. The rules almost encourage a cyclist onto sidewalks. Absolute duty to yield to pedestrians and signal passes on a sidewalk, however.

I've never ridden down there--do the ordinances vary the sidewalk rules a lot? Louisiana has a statute that says sidewalk riding is legal in the state, but all the parishes that have, y'know, actual people living in them have ordinances that ban it.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 01:20 PM
  #92  
livedarklions
Je suis Snap Motomag
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 4,418

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; "Motobecane" Fantom CX

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2238 Post(s)
Liked 664 Times in 404 Posts
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Just wondering, since you could see yourself averaging at least 20 on that flat of a surface.

When you come up to the area with those terrifying driveways, you can't see yourself doing something simple like applying the brakes and slowing down? So that in the unlikely event a car pulled out of the driveway while you were going by, *YOU* could stop?

And once you've passed that small cluster of terrifying hazards of a few blind driveways, and then picking up the pace again?

Think of it as interval training?

Or think of it as entering a feed zone?

Or maybe just think of riding at a speed safe for current conditions?

Instead of averaging at least 20 mph, you'd be averaging at least 19 mph instead?

-mr. bill
Or, as I think he is saying, he could move over about 10 feet and ride that speed safely on the road. That's 10 feet more from the end of the bushes so just that much more reaction time.

I don't know how unlikely that is, btw. I see cars back out like that all the time when I'm driving, and from time to time when I'm riding.

I take the position that most drivers are actually pretty good, but there is an irreducible number of really bad ones you encounter randomly. Best to assume they're possibly present at all times, and try to maximize your ability to react and avoid. Clearly, reducing speed is sometimes necessary for that, but it certainly isn't the only strategy.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 01:37 PM
  #93  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 11,126
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1740 Post(s)
Liked 26 Times in 21 Posts
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Sidewalks in Florida are not bicycle facilities, but people on bikes may use sidewalks. Both statements can be true at the same time. This isn't hard.

"316.2065(9) A person propelling a vehicle by human power upon and along a sidewalk, or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk, has all the rights and duties applicable to a pedestrian under the same circumstances."

-mr. bill
That wasn't the problem with what you said.

You suggest that a facility is not appropriate for cycling and then recommend that people should use it.

That makes no sense.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 01:44 PM
  #94  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 11,126
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1740 Post(s)
Liked 26 Times in 21 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
The whole statute concerning paths, roads and sidewalks is pretty interesting. The rules almost encourage a cyclist onto sidewalks. Absolute duty to yield to pedestrians and signal passes on a sidewalk, however.
No, not really.

It merely says it's allowed and indicates the requirements if you choose to ride there.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 01:58 PM
  #95  
livedarklions
Je suis Snap Motomag
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 4,418

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; "Motobecane" Fantom CX

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2238 Post(s)
Liked 664 Times in 404 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
No, not really.

It merely says it's allowed and indicates the requirements if you choose to ride there.
It's the part about the two different types of citations that I was referring to--also you have more lane requirements on paths and streets.

Notice I said "almost"--so we're really splitting hairs between "not really" and "almost". Think I'll pass on round 2 should you choose to quibble further.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 02:03 PM
  #96  
livedarklions
Je suis Snap Motomag
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 4,418

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; "Motobecane" Fantom CX

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2238 Post(s)
Liked 664 Times in 404 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
That wasn't the problem with what you said.

You suggest that a facility is not appropriate for cycling and then recommend that people should use it.

That makes no sense.
He didn't suggest that, you just made it up by deliberately distorting what he actually said. He said, correctly, that the sidewalk in the picture did not meet the legal definition of a bike path in Florida. Since sidewalk riding is legal in Florida, that neither says nor implies that riding on it is or is not appropriate.

You want to poke the bear, fine, but at least do a competent job of it.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 02:13 PM
  #97  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 11,126
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1740 Post(s)
Liked 26 Times in 21 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
He didn't suggest that,.
Sure he did:

Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
That's a sidewalk, not a sidepath. Florida has minimum requirements for bicycle paths - that doesn't meet them, not even close.
If it's "not even close" to the "minimum requirements", why did he tell that bakerjw should be riding there?

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-26-19 at 02:18 PM.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 02:19 PM
  #98  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 11,126
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1740 Post(s)
Liked 26 Times in 21 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Notice I said "almost"--so we're really splitting hairs between "not really" and "almost". Think I'll pass on round 2 should you choose to quibble further.
???

"Not really" is like close to zero. "Amost" is close to 100%.

The difference isn't "splitting hairs". That makes no sense.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 02:24 PM
  #99  
livedarklions
Je suis Snap Motomag
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 4,418

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; "Motobecane" Fantom CX

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2238 Post(s)
Liked 664 Times in 404 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Sure he did:



If it's "not even close" to the "minimum requirements", why did he tell that bakerjw should be riding there?
You have incredibly bad reading comprehension. It was a reference specifically to Florida's legal requirements, not to requirements for riding.

By the way, your use of bold just makes you look silly.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 07-26-19, 04:13 PM
  #100  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 11,126
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1740 Post(s)
Liked 26 Times in 21 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
You have incredibly bad reading comprehension.
This from some one who thinks 'not really" and "almost" are the same thing.

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
It was a reference specifically to Florida's legal requirements, not to requirements for riding.
What is the purpose of the "legal requirements"?

If it is "not even close" close to the "minimum requirements", it's suggesting that it isn't a good place to ride (at 20+ mph!)

If it is "not even close" close to the "minimum requirements", it's dumb to complain that somebody isn't using it.

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
By the way, your use of bold just makes you look silly.
???
njkayaker is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.