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Was there a "Jump the Shark" moment for high flange hubs?

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Was there a "Jump the Shark" moment for high flange hubs?

Old 08-14-19, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Just wanted to thank you for this - I'm now filled with ideas for a 650B build...

-Kurt
https://www.renehersecycles.com/prod...ry/components/

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Old 08-14-19, 09:30 PM
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Coming in late, but large flange hubs were fading in the early '80's. Shimano catalogs showed a large-flange cassette hub in 1982 but I think I've seen one example in person.

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Old 08-14-19, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Wills View Post
Coming in late, but large flange hubs were fading in the early '80's. Shimano catalogs showed a large-flange cassette hub in 1982 but I think I've seen one example in person.
Jaw has officially dropped to the floor. All these years, I somehow never heard of this thing. Is it exclusively Uniglide, or did they make a version with the replaceable cassette assembly?

-Kurt
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Old 08-15-19, 05:44 AM
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The first generation XT (M700) hubs were high flange:





When I was getting the wheels for my Trek 720 built- I chose the Phil "Rivvy" hub- Gloriously polished. Majestic AF.


IMG_0079 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr

IMG_0227 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr
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Old 08-15-19, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ksryder View Post
I think OP is using "jumping the shark" to mean "became unfashionable" which is not what it means.

It means "this once good thing has now became absurd and dragged out or has crossed over into stupidity and irrelevance."

It comes from an episode late in the run of Happy Days involving an absurd plotline in which Fonzie jumps over a shark while water skiing. It is generally recognized as the period when the show went into a rapid decline in quality.

Source: five seconds on google.
I think the point is it was considered good before, and not so good after... Jumping the shark is the... fulcrum so to speak. A defining moment.

There was a period where friction shifting was a point of development- but as soon as SIS came out- friction shifting was effectively obsolete.

Nuking the fridge.
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Old 08-15-19, 05:54 AM
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Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but all I see on Jan's site there are bulbous looking generator hubs. Not that there's anything wrong with the level of practicality that affords, but I don't see any classic high-flange hubs there.

What am I missing?

-Kurt
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Old 08-15-19, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but all I see on Jan's site there are bulbous looking generator hubs. Not that there's anything wrong with the level of practicality that affords, but I don't see any classic high-flange hubs there.

What am I missing?

-Kurt
Classic 650b randonneur parts, check out the cranksets, brakes, handlebars. I guess I jumped to the conclusion you wanted a classic vintage look.
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Old 08-15-19, 06:43 AM
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Those EX hubs are spectacular.

The 'jumping sharks' colloquialism doesn't really apply to HF hubs. They weren't short-lived gimmicks. That they became less popular doesn't mean they became irrelevant or redundant. New models are being made and old models collected and used so their story continues, unlike Happy Days. Fonzie T-shirts are ironic but not collectible.
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Old 08-15-19, 06:57 AM
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Saw these about a year ago.

https://www.hubsmith.com/product_detail.php?Key=57

https://www.hubsmith.com/product_detail.php?Key=56

They make a Campy Sheriff Star copy as well.
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Old 08-15-19, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by St33lWh33ls View Post
Classic 650b randonneur parts, check out the cranksets, brakes, handlebars. I guess I jumped to the conclusion you wanted a classic vintage look.
No worries, I got it now

Was thinking Velo Orange for most of the bits though. Love that stem they have with the built-in bell boss.

-Kurt
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Old 08-15-19, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Slightspeed View Post
I haven't even touched it yet. I was thinking large quantities of PB Blaster and patience, and maybe squeezing the flange "gently" in my wood jawed workmate table vise.
Looking at that, my method of attack would be putting the freewheel tool in the vise (in the normal manner) lay the freewheel in the tool, drop two long screwdrivers into the slots of the hub opposite each other, then take a long pry bar pushing against one screwdriver and pulling against the other. With enough leverage, it should come off fairly easy.
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Old 08-15-19, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but all I see on Jan's site there are bulbous looking generator hubs. Not that there's anything wrong with the level of practicality that affords, but I don't see any classic high-flange hubs there.

What am I missing?

-Kurt
@St33lWh33ls, were you thinking of the Grand Bois hubs Compass used to sell?

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/...om-grand-bois/
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/...cassette-hubs/

I think there was something about the manufacturing Jan didn't like, so they dropped them from the program. (EDIT: Found it. https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/...-new-products/)
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Old 08-15-19, 01:33 PM
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Here's one from a couple of years ago, cracked flange between the holes on an old Campy. I found a hub body for $5 at a swap meet, gave it a good polishing, swapped the internals from the cracked one, and had the wheel re-laced. That was 3,000 miles, a couple of gravel rides and one Eroica ago. Still going strong. Those modern mega high flanges look fragile to me, but those aren't 50+ years old like this one, I guess.
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Old 08-15-19, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
@St33lWh33ls, were you thinking of the Grand Bois hubs Compass used to sell?

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/...om-grand-bois/
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/...cassette-hubs/

I think there was something about the manufacturing Jan didn't like, so they dropped them from the program. (EDIT: Found it. https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/...-new-products/)
Hey Scott, to be honest whenever I hear 650b I think Herse, Singer, and that site has some beautiful parts relating to that genre, so I was a bit off topic. I do recall seeing those hubs, did not realize they had been discontinued. I love that single speed crankset, a bit pricey though.
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Old 08-15-19, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Slightspeed View Post
Here's one from a couple of years ago, cracked flange between the holes on an old Campy. I found a hub body for $5 at a swap meet, gave it a good polishing, swapped the internals from the cracked one, and had the wheel re-laced. That was 3,000 miles, a couple of gravel rides and one Eroica ago. Still going strong. Those modern mega high flanges look fragile to me, but those aren't 50+ years old like this one, I guess.
I don't remember anyone cracking any Campy Record high flanges BITD when you could still buy them. However I've seen a number of recent cases of this happening on this forum. Taking a fresh look at them now, I realize they are rather aggressively lightened. There's really not much webbing left between holes.

Theoretically aluminum hardens with age, IIRC, but I doubt that's it. Might be that the cracked flanges we see occasionally these days are from people using modern spoke tensions on vintage wheels. It's not like anyone measured, but old school tension was probably closer to 70-80 Kgf than the 110-120 often used today.
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Old 08-15-19, 06:07 PM
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high vs low...

Originally Posted by noglider View Post
@ksryder is right about the proper use and abuse of the term jump the shark.

It was in about 1975 or 1976 when I asked a bike shop owner why low flange hubs were coming into style. He said they give a softer ride since the spokes of the wheel are longer. Of course, that is bunk, but the bike world believed it for a long time, and some still believe it. I don't know why Merckx preferred them, and it's possible for anyone to come up with a belief like this and believe they feel the difference, even a highly competent champion. Jobst Brandt measured the forces going on in bicycle wheels, and he pointed out that that the tension is along the length of spokes, not across them like a diving board. The size difference between high and low flange hubs is negligible, too. Most importantly, even if one wheel is radially stiffer than another, the difference is lost in the compliance of a pneumatic tire.

I am also among those who think high flange hubs look better, not because I think they ride better or worse.
Well crap! I was told (in 1975) that the pros like Eddy, used low flange hubs because of the rough road surfaces, and I believed it until 5 minutes ago.
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Old 08-15-19, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
I'll see your bacon slicer and your cheese shredder, and raise you a Maxi-car!


The old Frenchies tell me that the purpose of high-flange hubs in the old randonneur sphere had a practical aspect. You can change a broken spoke with the freewheel on the wheel - and the wheel still on the bike! With a double walled rim, you won't even need to deflate the tire.

There is also a drum brake on the other side, but that only accounts for one of the flanges being so high. These are riveted flanges. René Herse made some himself as well. Some low-flange Maxi-car hubs had keyhole spoke holes so that the spokes could be removed that way, again without removing the freewheel.
Nice! I've always liked the look too but replacing spokes with a big flange on my old touring bike certainly made my day when touring through no man's land. I always carried a freewheel tool but never a 10" crescent.😃
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Old 08-15-19, 06:58 PM
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So... what is the exact Eddy Merckx connection... he seems to be the "shark to jump"? Is this based on just observation, a video, an interview?
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Old 08-15-19, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Cycle Tourist View Post
I always carried a freewheel tool but never a 10" crescent.😃
I've been in that exact situation - without a large-flange! It was a freehub, so the forces were less than for a freewheel. We were in Welsh hill country. I ended up stopping near a stout wrought-iron gate. I blocked the cassette from turning by inserting an allen wrench through the spokes and into the cassette. I inserted the lockring tool in the hinge of the gate, and had my friend push the gate closed to clamp the tool's flats. It was enough to get the lockring off - just.

Next town with a bike shop, I purchased a wrench and chain whip to carry. Persuaded the shop owner to drill them for me, for lightness. I broke 20 or so spokes on that tour, so it was worth it. Now I tour on 48 spoke wheels if at all possible. Can't live that life more than once.
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Old 08-15-19, 07:35 PM
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I think Campy began the transition from HF to LF with this offering ca. 1983:





DD
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Old 08-15-19, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
I think Campy began the transition from HF to LF with this offering ca. 1983:
You never disappoint, DD. I spotted those black accents in the slots

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Old 08-15-19, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by St33lWh33ls View Post
Hey Scott, to be honest whenever I hear 650b I think Herse, Singer, and that site has some beautiful parts relating to that genre, so I was a bit off topic. I do recall seeing those hubs, did not realize they had been discontinued. I love that single speed crankset, a bit pricey though.
I wonder single-speed RH cranks they've actually sold. Most trackies (and faux trackies) stick to higher BCD cranks, and even the fanciest ones are cheaper than the RH. I'd love to have one of their doubles on my rando bike, though.
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Old 08-15-19, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by St33lWh33ls View Post
Saw these about a year ago.

https://www.hubsmith.com/product_detail.php?Key=57

https://www.hubsmith.com/product_detail.php?Key=56

They make a Campy Sheriff Star copy as well.
Does any retailer actually carry them? I can only find Taiwanese equivalents of AliBaba/AliExpress offering quotations of large lots.

-Kurt
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Old 08-15-19, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Jaw has officially dropped to the floor. All these years, I somehow never heard of this thing. Is it exclusively Uniglide, or did they make a version with the replaceable cassette assembly?

-Kurt
Well, shucks... It probably helps that I "came of age" as a bike mechanic during the Shimano Aero Era. I had a paper copy of the catalog that's on Sheldon's site and I thought all of it was drool-worthy.

I never saw Shimano 600EX high-flange cassette hubs outside of a Bicycle Dealer Showcase show. They made zillions of variations on the small-flange hubs for mountain bikes (drilling, OLD width, color) but Shimano high-flange hubs were gone after 1986 or so (except track hubs, of course).

If you want a Shimano high-flange cassette hub now, you also have to like disk brakes. The Deore and Deore XT disk brake hubs for 6-bolt disks have large flanges:

I wanted a large-flange cassette hub badly enough that I disassembled one of these, chucked the hub shell in a lathe, and shaved off the disk mounting lugs. A little more work with fine sandpaper and polishing compound and it's hard to tell it wasn't meant to be that way. It lives on my wife's Gold Rush recumbent... it's probably due for re-polishing.

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Old 08-15-19, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Slightspeed View Post

These were tossed in with a barn find bike I bought. They even look good, dirty. Don't know who cut the spokes😡
Others suggested clamping the hub somehow so the freewheel can be removed. I'm skeptical- those hubs aren't meant to be squeezed either on the barrel or across the flanges. Too much pressure and you have shards of aluminum.

If the hub and freewheel are worth saving, here's what I'd do: I would make up a set of Z-bend spokes as seen here:
https://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/z-spokes/
I'd then lace a sacrificial rim to the hub using these spokes. Obviously you're not going to get anything to go in from the freewheel side of the drive-side flange, so you can either have all the spokes pointing so they're under tension when you try to remove the freewheel. Apply enough tension to the spokes so they're pulling evenly on the hub, clamp the freewheel tool to the hub with a skewer, clamp the assembly in a bench vise, say a few prayers, and then twist to break loose the freewheel as usual. It helps to have two people applying pressure since they'll be better able to control the rim... it's going to wiggle around no matter what.
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