rensho3

Thanks!

Super D

Any new thinking since the 2017 discussion? Seems over 30mph, the aero advantage would be important to maximize speed from the high effort/output, so if you were to transition from standing/sprinting on the base bar into the armrests quickly/smoothly while keeping cadence up, wouldn't the aero position be beneficial in degrading speed less than being in the sprint bars and pushing more air?

(I guess this depends on whether while in the sprint bars, one can get as low as a Cav or a Ewan...although I have no idea how they don't lift their back wheels off the ground)

Morelock

people may go as fast/faster on sprint bars vs. aerobars... but if someone were equally proficient using both, they would go faster in aerobars.
Specificity Specificity Specificity

colnago62

This probably goes double for amateur riders in the lower categories.

Clythio

Check videos of Women 500tt races at Track Cups and Championships. It’s 50/50, and sometimes handlebars win, but on a “ferocious” performance. When aerobars wins, it’s smooth, more continuous.

As a master I race 500 on aerobars once my watt numbers for first lap are the same on both options

Baby Puke

I think if you've been riding kilo for years on aerobars it's probably best to keep using them for 500 when you become "of a certain age". I'm wondering if part of the reason many elite women sprinters don't use aerobars isn't because they've never had to (not being pursuiters and not needing to ride kilos).

tobukog

We should also consider that many riders just can't produce nearly as much power while on aero bars. Of course, there are the freaks that can.

carleton

Exactly.

Even if the rider is 100% comfortable in aerobars, for the 500M, the best bar depends on the rider's style. Brute force would likely benefit from drop bars. Smooth power would benefit from aerobars.

Vice-versa would likely have negative effects for a given rider.

If you are not comfortable in aerobars, you'll be faster in drops. Period. This even goes for road TT riders. Newbies struggle using aerobars on the road and go slower than if they rode drop bars.

Morelock

one thing that's always a danger when looking at what pro's/elites do/use is confusing talent with optimization. Results do not necessarily =/= correct choices.

at 500m speeds, aerodynamic drag is the #1 thing you are looking to overcome. Even the best drop bar position is giving up a lot of drag to a moderate/fairly good aero position. (which admittedly a lot of people don't sweat improving) and in general, the power gap (which you need to be losing a LOT more power than most people realize for that gap to be close to / in favor of drops... or your aero position needs to really suck) can be closed with some time spent (specificity) training.

In any event aerobars are legal, the world records will always be set using them.

fwiw rough calculations

ie: if you have a pretty great drops position (~.31cda) and average 400w for a 500m vs. a "medium/good" aero position (.22) but can only average a 300w avg for the 500m (not including standing start spike of course, but let's assume you have practiced enough to be proficient both ways) You'll finish in roughly the exact same time. That's a big gap in watts.

*you can get your drop bar cda lower... but at a certain point you'll run into the same issue you do with aerobars...producing power...

Baby Puke

I'd be curious if the aerobars/drop bars ratio has changed since the TT was dropped from the Olympics. I know that on the men's side, many guys just do the kilo at the WC's without specifically training for it like riders did when it was an Olympic event. Same on the women's side? Maybe that extends to equipment preparation? Anna Meares always rode aerobars for it, but I can't find any videos of the 2004 Olympic 500 to check the other riders.

Morelock

^I'm sure you are right. Training specifically for an event like that does have carry over, but in general if someone asked me how to spend their time on the track, unless they were aiming for a nats/worlds podium in the TT/kilo, they'd almost certainly be better off spending that time on another event, and just riding it as part of an omnium/weekend whenever it came up. (in which case yeah, drop bars probably make sense)

The best argument for the 500m in drops is that a lot of people are going to spend roughly the first lap out of the saddle anyways. At that point you need to do those calculations above ^ for ~250 instead of 500m, and also work out how much power difference there is in your first lap/start. (Analytical Cyclist's has some models that take into account peak watts if anyone has interest in it - of course field testing is best n-1) 250m is still a long way, and most people "should" be able to git gud at starting on pursuit bars if they work at it. (unlike myself... who is terrible at it. I'm terrible at it on drops too though!)

Baby Puke

Last year I did some experiments with drops vs. aerobars doing standing and rolling 400's. Top speed was always better with the aerobars, so that's what I do. I think people make a lot of the "transition" between the hooks and the skis but if you are used to them ( I started doing road TT's on them in 1990) I feel it's a non-issue.

carleton

This is key to my argument.

Also, standing starts are key any event 1KM or less. Guess which bars lead to better standing starts?

Yes, aerobars are idea at speed. But, what about everything that happens before the rider gets to cruising speed?

Comfort in aerobars is key.

I watched Steve Hill (2x US Elite Kilo champ, multiple US. masters Kilo and sprint champ, multiple masters world 750M and sprint champ) train at DLV several days/week before he retired. Most of the time he was behind a motorbike. 99% of the time in aerobars.. I'd only see drop bars when he'd very occasionally drop into a 5 or 10 lap scratch on race night to finish up his workout that he started at 3PM.

Morelock

@careleton, I won't disagree with which is easier to start with, I think that's pretty easily determined. However, while I totally agree the start is very, very important in these events, you do have to weigh the total time in on that importance. 5-10 seconds out of a 40-70second event is not a big piece of the pie, unless the start on pursuit bars is SO much worse that it can make up for the 30-60 seconds you're benefiting from lower drag. I don't know how much that gap is, but it has to be a LOT.

Baby Puke

...so set your aerobar hooks up the same position as your drop bars?

carleton

These elite ladies who specialize in the 500M spend waaay more time in a wind tunnel than we ever will. I'm sure they and their coaches have tested all of this theoretically and on the track and settle on the 50/50 split was see at the highest levels.

Easier said than done. Lots of angles and whatnot involved. Trust me, I've tried.

Baby Puke

In most cases you you need an adjustable stem with two pivots like the old LOOK Ergo stem (I have one) or this thing which is just as good for a fraction of the price: Satori Cobra

Once you have your hands in the right place then it's a matter of getting your skis spaced correctly. This is probably not possible with most integrated aerobars which are mostly designed for road TT or triathletes. Dedicated basebar and adjustable clip on is the way to go, and also much, much cheaper in most cases.

Profile are now making a nice carbon base bar that comes narrow enough (38cm) and has enough drop to be useful to kilo/500 riders. I think it's called the Svet or something, Ken Lo can comment if he sees this. (Edit: here it is Profile Svet V )

Another option I'm seeing more lately is just putting clip-ons on your sprint bars, but this obviously won't work with something like a Scatto.

My standing start times are identical on drops or aerobars.

Morelock

I very much doubt that. Very few elites, and even fewer trackies, and fewer still females, have ever seen the inside of a tunnel. It's expensive to do alone on an athletes budget and few sponsors want to pay for it.
Again - picking parents well doesn't mean optimal setup.

* I mean... plenty of elites don't wear aero helmets still in sprint events. Many of them still win.
It doesn't mean they are more aero with a normal helmet, or that they even tested it.

When I used to TT I was a big aero nerd...always had the fanciest skinsuits, pointy hats, aero brakes, etc... I still never won my State TT... and I lost to a guy in my AG that was about as aero as a barn door and paid attention to none of the details.
The difference was he put out enough more watts that it didn't matter.

carleton

@Morelock, so are you just holding on to, "Anyone not using aerobars in the 500M is doing it wrong." at this point?

Morelock

@careleton

Assuming a healthy (no back/neck/etc issues) individual whose main objective is to do the fastest time in the 500m that they are capable of, then yes... they will go faster with pursuit bars + the majority of their training specifically targeting that event than they will go with sprint bars. (Although I wouldn't be totally against the ideal of drops + clip-on bars if the athlete felt like their start was not up to snuff on pursuit horns)

But like above, a lot of it depends on where you want to focus your attention - I am not saying someone cannot be successful using sprint bars. Just that their *potential* is not realized. Again, if you aren't targeting the 500m at nats/worlds and/or you're a scratch/points/match sprint/etc/keirin rider - it may not make sense to devote that kind of time to it. If you spend 2-10hrs a year in your pursuit bars... yeah I don't doubt you'll be faster on sprint bars.

^In the TT example... the guy that beat me won our state TT a couple of years in a row, and I never did better than second. That said... if the guy that beat me had paid attention to the details, he could have been on the podium at Nationals instead of finishing middle of the pack. Talent often beats optimization (one of the reasons it's hard to get elites to try new positions/gear/things that are hard to literally "show" them... they've been beating people so long that "their way" must the right... worked great up til that point, right?) quite often, but the really, really dangerous people are the ones that have the talent AND optimize. Then you get some monster like Glaetzer, that has huge power, but also looks like Caleb Ewen when he sprints, trying to maximize his aerodyamics.

@Baby Puke_

- I think the pro-svet bars have some drop from clamp area to cowhorns. The old HED corsair bars did too (and probably a lot of others)

Baby Puke

@Baby Puke_

- I think the pro-svet bars have some drop from clamp area to cowhorns. The old HED corsair bars did too (and probably a lot of others)[/QUOTE]

Yep, but the difference here is that they're available in a width less than 40 cm. Who still rides 40-42cm sprint bars? No one.

Morelock

Yep, but the difference here is that they're available in a width less than 40 cm. Who still rides 40-42cm sprint bars? No one.[/QUOTE]


The days of 44cm aerobars are over!

Baby Puke

The days of 44cm aerobars are over![/QUOTE]

Honestly, does it even make sense for a road time trialist to have anything over 40 cm? Who is doing their market research?

Morelock

^triathletes
(makes sense though... how many millions do triathletes spend on aero gear vs. TTer's or pursuiters? It's why there is a new "cutting edge" tri bike every other year, but the Felt TK1 has been around for 4 olympic cycles)

carleton

The amount of obsession they have and money they throw at equipment is unbelievable. Not every racer, but there are many who buy into the hype constantly.