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Fully loaded carbon ?

Old 10-29-18, 05:19 PM
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Fully loaded carbon ?

With racks and panniers...or does a carbon frame limit you to light touring with bike bags ?
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Old 10-29-18, 07:18 PM
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Not if designed with the loading in mind. However very few are. Those that are seem to still play the "I want to be more then a slow loaded touring bike" game. Andy
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Old 10-29-18, 07:49 PM
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Old 10-30-18, 12:12 PM
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Here we have the start of a race-tour in june, they only use bikepacking bags ,
no racks on their carbon bikes..

have a bike you like , of carbon? want to carry more ? get a bike trailer.

then you have still nothing on the frame..

a handlebar bag is nice for your camera and snacks.
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Old 10-30-18, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Here we have the start of a race-tour in june, they only use bikepacking bags ,
no racks on their carbon bikes..

have a bike you like , of carbon? want to carry more ? get a bike trailer.

then you have still nothing on the frame..

a handlebar bag is nice for your camera and snacks.
Well, I do have a bob trailer,but I never really thought about pulling it behind a carbon adventure touring bike...I'll have to mull that over.
Why are they even putting rack mounts on carbon frames ??? And here's another thing, why take a perfectly good touring bike like the Jamis Renegade Expat and throw a carbon fork on it ?

Last edited by 1-track-mind; 10-30-18 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 10-30-18, 06:13 PM
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Because carbon sells. Andy
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Old 10-30-18, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
Because carbon sells. Andy
Even less of a reason to embellish it's utility...six Jamis renegade models and none with steel forks.
I don't get it.

Last edited by 1-track-mind; 10-30-18 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 10-30-18, 08:07 PM
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Your handle agrees with your comments. The industry needs to keep moving forwards, like any does. I'm as retro as they come, my job is being the grizzled guy in the back of the shop. I build with steel and ride 36 spoked wheels, although I don't use sew ups any longer I do have a few bikes still sporting them. But even I see the need for the new generation of riders/buyers to be supportive of the business and visa versa. While I'm not a bike backer (a term I dislike almost as much as 29er) I do find it really cool that this new generation is embracing what I've loved to do for so since 1972, tour and spend the night out with only your bike to get back with.

If well done touring frames and forks can be made from carbon are exciting to riders I say great. So far I can't say that completely is the case but there's no design reason why carbon wouldn't make a nice touring bike. If you really want to kill of touring bikes then continue to reject any changes to the materials used in making them.

Besides those who still will want steel touring bikes will seek out people like me (but not me as I don't build for the public any more) and get one made for them. Andy
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Old 10-30-18, 09:14 PM
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Afaik, there isn't an extra sturdy touring frame out there specifically made for front rear panniers.

am I wrong?
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Old 10-30-18, 10:16 PM
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Pro track sprinters & MTBers use carbon frames--the pedaling & bumps surely put much more force on a frame than a tourist with luggage. OK, if I was riding thru Siberia with 35kg of luggage I wouldn't use a CF frame but 20kg seems reasonable on a CF bike that's designed for racks/panniers. Carbon is new for loaded touring but with inherent weight/ride advantage will become common in mid-price bikes. Even with current limited selection some carbon touring bikes are only ~25% more expensive than similar steel/alu bikes.
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Old 10-30-18, 10:46 PM
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I've overloaded my Jamis Renegade Expert carbon adventure bike, and regretted it. Handlebar shimmy downhill, very scary.

I tried again, pulling an ExtraWheel trailer. That worked, but the better solution is undoubtedly to reduce your luggage weight. The rack attachment points on the Jamis Renegade Expert are really fender attachment points. If you're going lightweight bike, you might as well go lightweight luggage. Heavy touring is fine, but it's more work, and that's the truth.
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Old 10-31-18, 12:03 AM
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Given you can pick up a used aluminum road bike with rack bosses, or a used steel road bike with the same, or a used flat-bar aluminum bike with rack bosses for under $500, with decent componentry, just a few model years old, I'd be inclined to avoid the wear and tear a load places on carbon if I intended to ride with rack and panniers.

In fact, I have an aluminum Synapse road bike with a Tubus Fly Evo rack, and comfortably carry one or two lightly loaded panniers with it, but recently added a Cannondale Quick CX to my very small assortment of bikes with the intent of putting a Tubus Vega Evo rack on it, and using it for slightly heavier loads -- to the store, on day-trips with the kids, that sort of thing. Both of these are aluminum bikes and though I prefer keeping the weight down on the Synapse, it handles 20-30 pounds alright. I expect the Quick CX will handle 30-45 reasonably well, and the Vega Evo is rated to about 55 pounds, if I recall. My Synapse can barely handle 28mm tires (that's what I have mounted currently. The Quick CX can handle up to about 40-42mm, which would handle weight just fine.
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Old 10-31-18, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
If you really want to kill of touring bikes then continue to reject any changes to the materials used in making them
Ha. I say if you really want to kill touring bikes, then continue to make carbon frames and forks with rack mounts as if they could really handle the weight. Is it planned obsolescence or just stupidity ?

Last edited by 1-track-mind; 10-31-18 at 07:19 AM.
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Old 10-31-18, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by DeadGrandpa View Post
If you're going lightweight bike, you might as well go lightweight luggage. Heavy touring is fine, but it's more work, and that's the truth.
your first comment here pretty much sums it up, if you are still going to travel with lots of stuff on a long trip, saving a few pounds in frame weight is not really going to make much of a difference.

and yes, your last comment pretty much sums it up also.
I gave a talk on one of my trips this year and rode my loaded up bike to the venue--I hadnt ridden fully loaded for a few months and each time this happens, its such a shock initially how slow ones goes and how much hard work it is.
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Old 10-31-18, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
Ha. I say if you really want to kill touring bikes, then continue to make carbon frames and forks with rack mounts as if they could really handle the weight. Is it planned obsolescence or just stupidity ?
This moment in the development of bicycles is just that, one point in time. Take this moment out of the stream of history and you can make all kinds of comments that seem, in that moment, to make sense. But take that moment as just one step along the path and those comments loose in the test of time. As example is AL. We consider AL to be quite a suitable frame material for any use, touring included. Just witness all the positive comments posted here about Cannondales. Yet if 1-track-mind had his way we could only look at AL frames through the eyes of a 1978 rider who had, at that time, only experienced Alans and Vitus. (While these bikes were considered almost too flexible they didn't keep Sean Kelly down). So, according to 1-track-mind, all the happened after these early AL frames have no place in the discussion of frame materials at any moment later then 1978. This is the ground that 1-track-mind stands on in his current argument. That any future development of carbon that results in a well designed touring frame, one capable of dealing with the loads and handling needs of a fully loaded rig, that rides well and lasts a long time, that can be repaired by any boat builder or person with passing skills with fiberglass is not ever going to happen and if it does happen it will be the devils work.

1-track-mind makes the choice to only view the world as it exists in the current and past with no vision for the world's future. This is why I referred to his "name" (and note that his name is not likely what his mother calls him) as being so well chosen. If one rereads my posts, #2 and #8 , you will see words like "well done" and "designed" and that the current selection of said bikes is lacking but able to be done. That they are not yet out in the market place is due to economic forces (will they sell and in how big numbers) and not material limitations.

Our world is not black or white. We all enjoy the various ways a bike can be ridden in the various areas we can get to. To reduce these choices is to limit human development.

I've long said that one could make a well riding frame from bubble gum. It's just that it would need a lot of it and end up looking unlike what one envisions bikes are suppose to look like. Maybe that's why 1-track-mind is so anti carbon?

As to carbon's current reputation of a lack of durability that is a fairly recent idea. When carbon first came onto the market in significantly large numbers, and across more then a couple niche brands, carbon was thought of as very crash worthy. It's only as the marketplace rewarded the brands that produced the lightest weight carbon frames did the amount of plies, the weight, be reduced till there was just barely enough to do the job with well controlled production methods. As soon as the marketplace rewards the manufactures with buying the tougher and more robust designs this, the fragile rep, will change.

I might not like this drift to carbon touring bikes but I won't deny this choice to those who want that. Andy
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Old 10-31-18, 09:17 AM
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This is proceeding as I thought it would.
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Old 10-31-18, 10:14 AM
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Riders who currently tour on carbon touring frames love them. Makes perfect sense to me. Many of these riders are using only rear panniers. This doesn't work on a steel bike - they become whippy - but works on carbon because is's stiffer. Be that as it may, some carbon touring frames come with forks with rack fixings, some don't. Here are 45 carbon touring frames to choose from: https://www.cyclingabout.com/carbon-touring-bikes/

More carbon bike porn: https://www.cyclingabout.com/2017-di...-touring-bike/

Carbon touring bike reviews are harder to find:
Carbon fiber makes a horrible touring bike; I love my new carbon fiber touring bike Ride for Climate
As you can read in the comments in this old thread: https://forums.adventurecycling.org/...p?topic=3623.0
carbon has come a long way in 10 years. Most folks now are still 10 years behind the times.

Carbon is actually the easiest material to repair on tour. All you need is some epoxy and fiberglass or carbon tows. You could even carry a very light repair kit with some sandpaper, a little bottle of resin, hardener, and some carbon fiber tows. Most modern metal frames would be extremely difficult to repair, but carbon is fairly simple if you educate yourself. Just google: "repair carbon fiber frames yourself".
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Old 10-31-18, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Here are 45 carbon touring frames to choose from: https://www.cyclingabout.com/carbon-touring-bikes/
Neat. Thanks for the link.
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Old 10-31-18, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Riders who currently tour on carbon touring frames love them. Makes perfect sense to me. Many of these riders are using only rear panniers. This doesn't work on a steel bike - they become whippy - but works on carbon because is's stiffer. Be that as it may, some carbon touring frames come with forks with rack fixings, some don't. Here are 45 carbon touring frames to choose from: https://www.cyclingabout.com/carbon-touring-bikes/

It needs noted...many of the bikes they list are CX/gravel racing bikes (all the Niner RDO and Salsa Warbird builds they list for starters), that just happen to have points you can put racks on (seldom with any stipulated load capacity)....rather than touring bikes. Also, LOL--good luck touring on a 1x setup, hope you live somewhere flat with no wind. I haven't researched all of them-but probably over half are that.

Which for the occasional tourist...keeps the bike as a "fun" bike when unloaded, but when loaded can become rather sketchy.

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Old 10-31-18, 11:33 AM
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If you can get your weights down to the point where you do not need racks, you could probably have a great time if you used bikepacking gear.

I own nothing carbon fiber related to bicycling (I have a carbon kayak paddle, a couple carbon trekking poles), but if someone wants to use a carbon bike, that is fine with me. I have toured with a friend that has a carbon fork and on his last tour a saddle with carbon rails.

I met a couple that were touring wtih bikepacking gear when I was in Iceland. I had fully loaded panniers, etc. I do not think I would have enjoyed touring the way they were, but I think they would not have enjoyed touring the way I was either. I took photos of their bikes, but I did not ask them permission to show their photos on the internet, so I cropped their faces off of the photos. They were riding steel, not carbon bikes, but that was in part because their choice of bikes was the Ritchey Break Away system that allowed them to save a ton of money for luggage fees on the airline tickets.


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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
This is proceeding as I thought it would.
Yup.
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Old 10-31-18, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
It needs noted...many of the bikes they list are CX/gravel racing bikes (all the Niner RDO and Salsa Warbird builds they list for starters), that just happen to have points you can put racks on (seldom with any stipulated load capacity)....rather than touring bikes. Also, LOL--good luck touring on a 1x setup, hope you live somewhere flat with no wind. I haven't researched all of them-but probably over half are that.

Which for the occasional tourist...keeps the bike as a "fun" bike when unloaded, but when loaded can become rather sketchy.
You're close: 18 out of the 45 are 1X. But in looking for the negative, you missed the positive, such as the Diamnondback with a 48-36-26t crankset. I think I'd like that just fine.
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Old 10-31-18, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
You're close: 18 out of the 45 are 1X. But in looking for the negative, you missed the positive, such as the Diamnondback with a 48-36-26t crankset. I think I'd like that just fine.
For a bike-packer it would def work. Problem with panniers is that like the rest of the CX or CX-adjacent bikes, it has short chainstays (prob 430ish mm), so making a rack/pannier setup work without heel-strike would be tricky....course racks exist that offset backwards to get things further aft. Also, personally, with pencil-thin seatstays I'd wonder about the rigidity with a loaded-back-end of panniers under power swaying.

My gravel rig is also my touring rig...and even with 44cm stays...I still want rear-extension for the rack mounting to avoid heel strike, and I don't have monstrously large feet.
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Old 10-31-18, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
For a bike-packer it would def work. Problem with panniers is that like the rest of the CX or CX-adjacent bikes, it has short chainstays (prob 430ish mm), so making a rack/pannier setup work without heel-strike would be tricky....course racks exist that offset backwards to get things further aft. Also, personally, with pencil-thin seatstays I'd wonder about the rigidity with a loaded-back-end of panniers under power swaying.

My gravel rig is also my touring rig...and even with 44cm stays...I still want rear-extension for the rack mounting to avoid heel strike, and I don't have monstrously large feet.
Carbon's a lot stiffer than metal. Don't know about where you are, but we have at least 15 Diamondback dealers here locally. You'd have to bring in some gear and try one out!
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Old 10-31-18, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post

1-track-mind makes the choice to only view the world as it exists in the current and past with no vision for the world's future. This is why I referred to his "name" (and note that his name is not likely what his mother calls him) as being so well chosen.

I've long said that one could make a well riding frame from bubble gum. Andy
My "name" actually pertains to singletrack, which is my focus. My mother is dead and did not call me anything due to dementia for her last 3 years. How condescending do you want to get, without really knowing me ? LMK when that bubble gum frame comes out.

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Old 10-31-18, 07:02 PM
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I own a pair of carbon fiber cycle cross bikes that I'm sure I could make work. Yea, the chainstays are only 425 but that's never been a problem for me. Using an Axiom or Old Man Mountain rack along with a seat post collar which has the mounting braze ons for the rear rack would probably suffice. My Fuji CC is so stiff in the rear triangle and bottom bracket area that I'm sure it would handle a load quite easily.
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